Questions about loading the 577 martini

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HasegawaYamato

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I had a Martini MK4 for a while, it is in great condition with no visible rust nor pitting, but I just cannt find any ammo for the beauty.
Based on pure luck, I found myself some martini rifle brass from Australia, so I guess I can finally be able to shoot it.
So Im basically a newbie in loading with black powder and no jacket lead bullets.
I did some research, and found some useful information:

- Many people use the lead bullets for .45-70, and paper patch it to size (.469), but some people just use custom bullets that fit the chamber (no paper patching).
- The military bullet is 480 gr and about 12 in brinell hardness.
- Many people saying both 1F or 2F powder can be used, but the 1-1/2F powder has similar size to the old military powder.
- There are different filler material that ppl use, from wool to kapok.
- Bullet lube should be used.

So I have few question:

- There are many commercial 45-70 bullets with wax filled already, and generally harder (somewhere around 18 in brinell), are they safe to use if I szied and paperpatched them? Do I need additional bullet lube as they already come with it?
- 480 gr lead bullet is diffcult to find, if I use a lighter bullet should I decrease or increase the load?
- Which powder should I use as a safe start?
- Is any recommended filler material for start?

Thanks in advance for taking the time and effort to look at my newbie questions :)
 
HasegawaYamato said:
Yeah I saw his videos, great stuff but I just wonder whats the difference between paper patching or not, seems a lot of people just dont paper patch at all :confused:
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I've done both. If the bullets are sized properly for your bore, paper patching really isn't necessary. If you can cast or find hollow base bullets that are large enough for your purposes, paper patching isn't necessary either, as the skirts obturate into the rifling, eliminating the need for the patch.

The best thing about paper patches is that they almost completely stop leading issues.

Powder coated bullets work just as well as patched bullets and also cut down on lead fouling.

PM Terry (Jethunter) about your concerns. He knows his stuff when it comes to cast lead bullets. I just saw the link is posted.
 
For the Martini-Henry, I have used the Lee 476-400-RF sized down to 0.470" with a custom sizer. You lose more lube capacity than I like when sizing it down that much, but it worked well.
 
One other thing about loading for the 577/450. POWDER

My rifle shoots best with 2FF BLACK POWDER over CCI250 magnum primers.

Black powder doesn't like air space between the powder and the bullet but does like to be slightly compressed.

I've used IMR3031, with some Dacron filling to keep the powder against the primer, for consistent ignition and it goes bang, but doesn't seem to give great accuracy.

I believe it has something to do with the characteristics of the pressure curve. My Sharps is the same in its choice of powder.

I have a chamber adapter for my 577/450. It takes 45 Colt cartridges as well as 455Webly. I load those cases with BP as well, using a 265 grn Hollow Base bullet.

Jethunter sells these as well and my rifle really likes his product.

You will also need to be careful when sizing the necks. It's not unusual for some 577/450 chambers to have tight necks, making it difficult to chamber bullets that are the proper size for the bore.

This is where the BP comes in. It seems to be able to "bump" the bullet, if it's soft enough, to obturate it properly into the rifling.
 
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Recommendation One - Slug your bore

Bore tolerances were generous in those days so before you invest in a mold or bullets, find out the exact dimensions of YOUR rifle so you can buy the right stuff the first time. Working from nominal values when actual ones are available is going to cost you time and money.

Recommendation Two - Cast your chamber with cerrosafe

Same principles as above however having the dimensions of your rifle's throat will be helpful during load development and patch development (if you decide to paper patch). It will also determine if using expensive off the shelf dies will over work your brass and determine if a set specific to your rifle (CH4D is a good maker) is worthwhile as losing brass prematurely at $5 a piece adds up quick.

Recommendation 3 - Ammunition

I would start with black powder, probably ffg. The hardness of your cast bullets is highly unlikely to be a determining factor in the safety of your ammunition. Too hard and you'll get no expansion, bad accuracy and potential leading from gas cutting around the unexpanded bullet. Too soft and you'll get major leading. With fg or ffg you physically cannot fit enough powder in the case to cause safety issues. Black is forgiving in that way. As mentioned by other posters air gaps are the safety issue. If you choose a reduced charge you can use various felt wads, fillers like cream of wheat, solid grease cookies and cards to take up the space. I would be wary of using dacron. Good lube is also paramount to performance. If you shoot black, it is not terribly hard to brew up your own lube. If that's not your thing, SPG is good commercially available stuff available at Rusty Wood and can be bought in sticks for a lubsizer or in bricks for pan lubing.
 
BlackPowderBurner said:
Recommendation One - Slug your bore

Bore tolerances were generous in those days so before you invest in a mold or bullets, find out the exact dimensions of YOUR rifle so you can buy the right stuff the first time. Working from nominal values when actual ones are available is going to cost you time and money.

Recommendation Two - Cast your chamber with cerrosafe

Same principles as above however having the dimensions of your rifle's throat will be helpful during load development and patch development (if you decide to paper patch). It will also determine if using expensive off the shelf dies will over work your brass and determine if a set specific to your rifle (CH4D is a good maker) is worthwhile as losing brass prematurely at $5 a piece adds up quick.

Recommendation 3 - Ammunition

I would start with black powder, probably ffg. The hardness of your cast bullets is highly unlikely to be a determining factor in the safety of your ammunition. Too hard and you'll get no expansion, bad accuracy and potential leading from gas cutting around the unexpanded bullet. Too soft and you'll get major leading. With fg or ffg you physically cannot fit enough powder in the case to cause safety issues. Black is forgiving in that way. As mentioned by other posters air gaps are the safety issue. If you choose a reduced charge you can use various felt wads, fillers like cream of wheat, solid grease cookies and cards to take up the space. I would be wary of using dacron. Good lube is also paramount to performance. If you shoot black, it is not terribly hard to brew up your own lube. If that's not your thing, SPG is good commercially available stuff available at Rusty Wood and can be bought in sticks for a lubsizer or in bricks for pan lubing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advises, first time hearing about cerrosafe, but I guess I will be buying it pretty soon lol
And yes, I think I will be doing paper patching. I want to be as close to the original stuff as possible.
About the lubes, I found many recipes, but I saw some info stating traditionally ppl tend to use just beewax only as lube? is that a good practice or not?
 
HasegawaYamato said:
Thanks for the advises, first time hearing about cerrosafe, but I guess I will be buying it pretty soon lol
And yes, I think I will be doing paper patching. I want to be as close to the original stuff as possible.
About the lubes, I found many recipes, but I saw some info stating traditionally ppl tend to use just beewax only as lube? is that a good practice or not?
Click to expand...

Beeswax alone is quite hard which makes it difficult to work with and unsuitable for shooting in anything other than blistering desert heat since it will hardly liquify. Additives such as oil and fat help it flow better both during application and when fired. Some shooters who go hard all year round will alter their fat-wax ratio in either direction to maximize both adhesion to the bullet and proper flow in different temperatures. Choosing a standard intermediate mix is a good start.
 
HasegawaYamato said:
Thanks for the advises, first time hearing about cerrosafe, but I guess I will be buying it pretty soon lol
And yes, I think I will be doing paper patching. I want to be as close to the original stuff as possible.
About the lubes, I found many recipes, but I saw some info stating traditionally ppl tend to use just beewax only as lube? is that a good practice or not?
Click to expand...

I usually use the Beeswax sealing rings that are cheap, and used for sealing a toilet to the flange. That stuff, is soft enough to use as is for finger application, or melt down and set your bullets, base down into the pan and allow to cool then use the cookie cutter over them, this leaves the grooves filled nicely.

If you're going to paper patch, you will need a bullet that is small enough to fit into your case mouth as well as the chamber.

I usually use a bullet without grooves, when I'm paper patching.

Another trick I picked up a couple of decades back, from a box of Kynoch ammunition, for the 577/450, was to just wrap the bullet with masking tape. One wrap and cut before it overlaps. Let the howls begin. I use a small puck of wax under the bullet for lubing, keeping the BP fouling soft, for the next round. Works well.

I've been contemplating doing the same with my 45/70 Sharps, when using powder coated bullets.
 
BlackPowderBurner said:
Choosing a standard intermediate mix is a good start.
Click to expand...

bearhunter said:
If you're going to paper patch, you will need a bullet that is small enough to fit into your case mouth as well as the chamber.

I usually use a bullet without grooves, when I'm paper patching.

Another trick I picked up a couple of decades back, from a box of Kynoch ammunition, for the 577/450, was to just wrap the bullet with masking tape. One wrap and cut before it overlaps. Let the howls begin. I use a small puck of wax under the bullet for lubing, keeping the BP fouling soft, for the next round. Works well.

I've been contemplating doing the same with my 45/70 Sharps, when using powder coated bullets.
Click to expand...

Much appreciate for the info. I guess I will be trying the 50/50 beeswax and olive oil recipe, seems easy and healthy lol.

I'm thinking I will be doing paper patch using 45-70 bullets, as they are easy to find, unless my bore size is way off.

Time to buy some cerrosafe :p
 
HasegawaYamato said:
Much appreciate for the info. I guess I will be trying the 50/50 beeswax and olive oil recipe, seems easy and healthy lol.

I'm thinking I will be doing paper patch using 45-70 bullets, as they are easy to find, unless my bore size is way off.

Time to buy some cerrosafe :p
Click to expand...

Paper patching took care of a lot of issues with early cartridge rifles and it may have been a bit of a hold over from the muzzle loading days when rifling first came out. Of course, smooth bore muzzle loaders had patched balls as well.

Proper thickness patches can and do make up for bore diameter discrepancies between rifles. If you are only loading for one rifle and you're planning on shooting it a lot, then my suggestion to you is to purchase a proper size mold and cast your own.

Buying cast bullets is OK but the casters usually only make them in one diameter, which may or may not fit your bore. That's when you need to patch.

You will be pleasantly surprised how well patching works.
 
Liek every topic in the shooting sports, this is conroversial, but this is my opinion.

You might never shoot enough rounds to see its effects, but paper-patched bullets wear a bore more quickly than do cast bullets. Paper by itself is abrasive, just take a sharp knife and run it across a stack of paper a few times, and see how much it was dulled. As well, a cast bullet typically is soft lead covered in lube whereas the paper is the "lube". In both cases, they do a great job "polishing" a bore, so bot are abrasive.

No matter what bullet solution you use, you need to know your bore diameters............
 
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Andy said:
Liek every topic in the shooting sports, this is conroversial, but this is my opinion.

You might never shoot enough rounds to see its effects, but paper-patched bullets wear a bore more quickly than do cast bullets. Paper by itself is abrasive, just take a sharp knife and run it across a stack of paper a few times, and see how much it was dulled. As well, a cast bullet typically is soft lead covered in lube whereas the paper is the "lube". In both cases, they do a great job "polishing" a bore, so bot are abrasive.

No matter what bullet solution you use, you need to know your bore diameters............
Click to expand...


This is true, but for those that don't cast their own, they have to make up the difference in some manner. Paper patching does that.

If and when I use wrapped paper patches, I usually use WAX PAPER, the type used for wrapping sandwiches. The paraffin impregnated into it makes a very decent lubrication that just about eliminates wear.

The masking tape I use is different. If lube is added, the glue dissolves underneath on the white packaging type. Now, I use the green Frog Tape and the paste wax I rub onto it, with a cloth, doesn't seem to dissolve the glue.

The other thing is, when you're shooting paper patched bullets over black powder fouling, there should be some lube left behind by the previous shot, to help keep the fouling soft.
 
woodchopper said:
so some may think that I'm a heretic but here is what I am doing

405grn .458" cast bullet with gascheck

38grns IMR4227 with 2 sheets TP for filler

Magnum primers

running about 1650FPS
Click to expand...

Shocking! Don't you know that these guns can only be used safely with blackpowder? :rolleyes:

There's a Sticky on Smokeless in Antiques, and an old CGN thread here about the 577 Snider and 577/.450 MH: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...nd-Snider-Enfield-577-Calibers!?highlight=577

That thread is a collection of posts about the use of smokeless and the usual guys saying how unsafe that is.

Here's an extract from that thread:



.577-.450 Smokeless Load Data

From Handloader Magazine (Nov-Dec 1978) by Jim Jukes on this subject, and it gives the following data (I apologize for the formatting, but I lost the war with the rudimentary editor used here):


Powder-Charge-Bullet Weight-Velocity-Remarks

IMR-4759 27 400 1,172 Mild load
Blue Dot 27 400 1,422 Good load - Max
Unique 16 400 1,124 Light recoil
Green Dot 16 400 1,094 Nice-shooting
Red Dot 16 400 1,136 Nice-shooting
Herco 20 400 1,272 Efficient load
IMR-3031 45 400 1,424 Powder left in bore - wadding essential
Blue Dot 19 475 1,075 Nice load. Accurate
Blue Dot 22 475 1,220 Very uniform, with wadding
Blue Dot 25 475 1,374 Powerful, but OK pressure and very uniform velocity
IMR-4759 23 475 990 Very accurate, mild
IMR-4759 25 475 1,109 Very accurate, mild
2400 20 475 1,132 Wadding a great help
IMR-4756 20 475 1,082 Very accurate load
Herco 20 475 1,213 Good Ignition
IMR-4227 30 475 1,144 Wadding a must
IMR-3031 45 500 1,582 Plenty of recoil. Some powder kernels in bore
IMR-4064 50 500 1,529 Unreliable ignition. Wide velocity spreads
Reloder 7 37 500 1,416 Unreliable Ignition
IMR-4759 27 500 1,170 Good-shooting load
 
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