That person is not much of a gunsmith if they can't do that, but at least they were honest about it. I would avoid that so-called "gunsmith" for any future work.
Insite Arms do some of the best work in Canada on precision rifles.
Need Gunsmith to cut barrel
- Thread starter joecrow
- Start date
That person is not much of a gunsmith if they can't do that, but at least they were honest about it. I would avoid that so-called "gunsmith" for any future work.
Insite Arms do some of the best work in Canada on precision rifles.
rifleman762
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
If there's a local machine shop run by some decent old boys, they'd probably do a re-crown for you on lunch hour for a case of beer. It would be the easiest job a machinist has had in weeks 
. Most lathes will fit the barrel through the headstock, leaving the action attached. They'll use a spider on the tail end and have the muzzle in the 4-jaw chuck (with a brass shim to protect the finish) to dial it in. Like Guntech indicated, it's not a lot of work. Heck, I just cut, crowned, AND threaded a rifle barrel for free for a co-worker (I'm just a home hobbyist).
Edit: I remembered another option which is a piloted barrel crown cutting tool like this: https://pacifictoolandgauge.com/47-barrel-crown-tools. I wouldn't do it like that myself but it probably works fine. Some people swear by it but, then again, some people use a die to cut muzzle threads... You could do it yourself and it will be pretty concentric to the bore.
. Most lathes will fit the barrel through the headstock, leaving the action attached. They'll use a spider on the tail end and have the muzzle in the 4-jaw chuck (with a brass shim to protect the finish) to dial it in. Like Guntech indicated, it's not a lot of work. Heck, I just cut, crowned, AND threaded a rifle barrel for free for a co-worker (I'm just a home hobbyist).Edit: I remembered another option which is a piloted barrel crown cutting tool like this: https://pacifictoolandgauge.com/47-barrel-crown-tools. I wouldn't do it like that myself but it probably works fine. Some people swear by it but, then again, some people use a die to cut muzzle threads... You could do it yourself and it will be pretty concentric to the bore.
rifleman762
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Very true. And then you have licensed gunsmiths (not you) who can't do a very basic machining job. My co-worker who I mentioned went to a so-called gunsmith (gunhack, more accurately) who said he would use a die to thread the barrel because he doesn't have a lathe! Jeezus. That's why I did it for him. The gunsmith licensing in Canada is a dumb system and a lot of redneck machinists really don't care. That's why I mentioned it would have to be an off-the-books job. Heck, I've met people who regularly do rebarrels for cash without a Firearms Business License. Personally, I wouldn't touch a gun for money without being licensed for it but that's just me.
I have the utmost respect for good gunsmiths like yourself and have used their services in the past. And if you do a crowning job for $40 you're definitely working for cheaper than a machine shop
. But machining a crown or reaming a chamber has zero to do with, for example, inletting a stock or adjusting a sear. The fact that you need formal training or years of apprenticeship in every aspect of gunsmithing in order to be "permitted" to legally machine an 11* taper on a piece of steel tube is ridiculous. But all our gun laws are ridiculous and are more to do with making it difficult and less enjoyable to own guns than with improving public safety.
Where are you located? Maybe we can recommend someone near you. It really isn't that difficult to do. - dan
Been a while since i chased this, but I seem to recall 16 inches for manually operated rifles and 18.5 for semiautomatic. I don't have regs here though, doing this strictly from memory. - dan
That is not the regulations concerning what you can cut an existing barrel down to.
No one can cut a barrel length shorter than 18 inches for a manual action and 18.5 inches for a semi auto.
A manual action can have the barrel replaced with a custom barrel shorter than 18 inches providing the oal is over 26 inches or the factory can manufacture a short barrel version.
O.p.said he wants it legally shortenedVery true. And then you have licensed gunsmiths (not you) who can't do a very basic machining job. My co-worker who I mentioned went to a so-called gunsmith (gunhack, more accurately) who said he would use a die to thread the barrel because he doesn't have a lathe! Jeezus. That's why I did it for him. The gunsmith licensing in Canada is a dumb system and a lot of redneck machinists really don't care. That's why I mentioned it would have to be an off-the-books job. Heck, I've met people who regularly do rebarrels for cash without a Firearms Business License. Personally, I wouldn't touch a gun for money without being licensed for it but that's just me.
I have the utmost respect for good gunsmiths like yourself and have used their services in the past. And if you do a crowning job for $40 you're definitely working for cheaper than a machine shop
gstprecision
Regular
- Location
- Frankford, On
Location would help to direct to a local gunsmith if there is one!
Thx for the reminder. - dan
Is that correct? My understanding was you can't cut a barrel below 18" regardless of gun, however if you go below 18.5" on a semi it becomes R?
That is to say there are two different rules at play, 1 is the minimum length you can cut a barrel (regardless of semi or not) and the other is how long a barrel has to be to remain NR on a semi?
Is it illegal to manufacture a restricted firearm? I thought you could manufacture R guns for personal use as long as you've got the license? They just need to be registered at a certain point in the process?
I'm thinking back to the days of 80% lowers - it was legal to build those into guns before the rcmp changed their interpretation to all 80% lowers being full auto lowers, right? As far as I'm aware there has been no change in law with regards to manufacturing for personal use in the last 5+ years?
If possession of a unregistered R gun wasn't an issue then, why would it be now if you chopped a barrel to 18? I would have assumed you'd just need to get it registered before you could take it out at that point?
What specifically would make it prohib and not R?
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Barrel and Firearms Lengths
An unholy mess has been made by earlier legislation plus Bill C-68 regarding the definitions of non-restricted firearms, “restricted firearms”, “prohibited firearms” [the two in quotes are defined by CC s. 84(1); the term non-restricted is not defined in the law]. Let’s try it this way, for the education of those who want to understand this area of law:
NOTE: NONE OF THIS POSTING APPLIES TO ANY FULL AUTO FIREARM, BECAUSE ALL FULL AUTO FIREARMS ARE “PROHIBITED FIREARMS” BY CC S. 84(1) DEFINITION.
LESS THAN 18.5″/470mm BARREL LENGTH RULES:
CC s. 84(1) “restricted firearm” (b): If a firearm has a barrel length less than 18.5″/470mm AND is centrefire AND is semi-automatic, that combination forces the firearm into the “restricted firearm” class. In such a case, IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW THE BARREL ARRIVED AT THAT LENGTH. The rule is the same regardless of how it ARRIVED at the too-short length — but note carefully that this rule is overridden by the rule just below if the barrel is SHORTENED BY CUTTING IT DOWN OR BY SUBSTITUTION to less than 18″/457mm. That is a case of “the specific overrides the general.”
Therefore, a Browning Auto-5 or Remington Model 11-87 shotgun with an 18-5/8″/474mm barrel is non-restricted. Cut the barrel to 18-1/4″/464mm and it becomes a “restricted firearm.” Cut it again — to 17-7/8″/454mm — and it becomes a “prohibited firearm.” It is amazing how cutting 3/8″/10mm rings off its barrel changes the basic character of the firearm, with less than an inch of overall length change!
If you then refit the firearm with a 20″ barrel, it becomes a non-restricted firearm again. It doesn’t HAVE to make sense, it’s GOVERNMENT POLICY.
LESS THAN 18″/457mm BARREL LENGTH RULES:
CC s. 84(1) “prohibited firearm” (d): If the barrel has been SHORTENED to less than 18″/457mm, after leaving the factory, “by sawing, cutting or ANY other alteration or modification” that forces the firearm into the “prohibited firearm” class.
NOTE: The firearm is NOT forced into the “prohibited firearm” class if it left the factory with the barrel at below-18″/457mm barrel length. I have, for example, a .22 rimfire semi-auto 30-shot rifle with a 9-3/4″ barrel, a .410 single-shot shotgun with an 11-3/4″ barrel, two 12-gauge pump-action shotguns with 14″ barrels, a .22 rimfire pump-action rifle with a 17-7/8″ custom barrel and a .223 calibre rifle with a 14″ barrel — AND ALL OF THEM ARE NON-RESTRICTED. THAT IS BECAUSE THEY EITHER LEFT THE FACTORY WITH THOSE BARRELS, OR WERE FITTED WITH FACTORY- OR CUSTOM-MADE BARRELS IN THOSE LENGTHS AT SOME LATER DATE, and were NEVER fitted with a longer barrel. One left the factory with NO barrel, and so a 14″ barrel could be legally fitted.
My assembly of that collection of idiocy demonstrations was deliberate. The law apparently tried to prohibit certain lengths of barrel or firearm — and failed miserably, because the limits are all conditional. Assembling the necessary parts to change one of your firearms into one of my above-noted configurations is something you can do as a hobby. It is a risky hobby. You may be forced to defend the legality of what you have, or have done, in a court of law — at heavy expense — because some police officer does NOT understand all the above technicalities. You may even be convicted — because some JUDGE does not understand firearms law. Did YOU understand it before reading ALL of this posting? Are you SURE you understand the limits NOW?
It is IMPORTANT to understand what you can and cannot do.
OVERALL LENGTH LESS THAN 26″/660mm RULES:
CC s. 84(1) “prohibited firearm” (b): This is another clause of the same law — the one cited immediately above — and it applies in the same way. If the firearm ARRIVES at the “less than 26″/660mm in overall length” condition by “sawing, cutting” etc., then it is forced into the “prohibited firearm” class. If it left the factory at that too-short length, the limit does NOT apply. It is non-restricted, UNLESS it is semi-automatic AND centrefire.
Example: A Remington Model 870 pump-action shotgun that has been fitted with a Scattergun Technologies 12″/305mm barrel and a Pachmayr pistol grip is less than 26″/660mm in overall length, but is NOT “prohibited.” It is a “prohibited firearm” if this was done to a Remington 870 that left the factory with those parts, but it is non-restricted if it was re-manufactured and left the Scattergun Technologies factory with them. It doesn’t HAVE to make sense — it’s GOVERNMENT POLICY.
Note that WHICH class the short firearm becomes — non-restricted, “restricted” OR “prohibited” — depends upon HOW it ARRIVED at that shortened length. That strongly reinforces what I have said above about the length determination — overall OR barrel length — NOT being enough to decide which class the firearm falls into. Knowing the WAY the firearm or barrel ARRIVED at that short length is vital to understanding this area of the law when determining the class of firearm.
I hope that this clarifies the situation for you — as much as is possible with such badly-written law.
Note that a “firearm” is defined, in CC s. 2 “firearm,” as: “a barrelled firearm from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled firearm and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm.”
What that means is that the “frame or receiver” is a firearm. If you add more uncontrolled ‘spare parts’ to the basic “firearm” (the “frame or receiver”), it is STILL a “firearm.”
You are NOT required to register ‘uncontrolled spare parts.’ There is no way to identify such parts — they usually do not have Serial numbers. You are NOT required to register anything but the “firearm” — and that means only the “frame or receiver.”
You may convert all registrations you now hold to registrations of the “frame or receiver” — and that will make your registration far more flexible. The firearms control bureaucracy has added a special subdivision — “frame or receiver ONLY.” That is NOT how a “frame or receiver” should be registered if there is even one screw attached to it. It should be registered as a partial firearm, NOT a “frame or receiver ONLY.” The government’s computer program cannot handle that variation, because the software is poorly designed and written, but that is what it should be registered as.
Whether or not a firearm is registered, the CLASS that the firearm falls into is controlled by the descriptions given in the current CC s. 84(1) “firearm”, “restricted firearm” and “prohibited firearm” definitions.
There are no definitions of non-restricted firearm or deactivated firearm.
The definition of “firearm” is crippled in current law by the CC s. 2 “firearm” definition, and by the C-68 CC s. 84(3) conditional and partial redefinition of the words “firearm”, “restricted firearm” and “prohibited firearm.”
STUDY all this stuff. Yes, you CAN understand it. Firearms control law is NOT a can of worms. It is a barrel of rattlesnakes.
Follow us
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Barrel and Firearms Lengths
An unholy mess has been made by earlier legislation plus Bill C-68 regarding the definitions of non-restricted firearms, “restricted firearms”, “prohibited firearms” [the two in quotes are defined by CC s. 84(1); the term non-restricted is not defined in the law]. Let’s try it this way, for the education of those who want to understand this area of law:
NOTE: NONE OF THIS POSTING APPLIES TO ANY FULL AUTO FIREARM, BECAUSE ALL FULL AUTO FIREARMS ARE “PROHIBITED FIREARMS” BY CC S. 84(1) DEFINITION.
LESS THAN 18.5″/470mm BARREL LENGTH RULES:
CC s. 84(1) “restricted firearm” (b): If a firearm has a barrel length less than 18.5″/470mm AND is centrefire AND is semi-automatic, that combination forces the firearm into the “restricted firearm” class. In such a case, IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW THE BARREL ARRIVED AT THAT LENGTH. The rule is the same regardless of how it ARRIVED at the too-short length — but note carefully that this rule is overridden by the rule just below if the barrel is SHORTENED BY CUTTING IT DOWN OR BY SUBSTITUTION to less than 18″/457mm. That is a case of “the specific overrides the general.”
Therefore, a Browning Auto-5 or Remington Model 11-87 shotgun with an 18-5/8″/474mm barrel is non-restricted. Cut the barrel to 18-1/4″/464mm and it becomes a “restricted firearm.” Cut it again — to 17-7/8″/454mm — and it becomes a “prohibited firearm.” It is amazing how cutting 3/8″/10mm rings off its barrel changes the basic character of the firearm, with less than an inch of overall length change!
If you then refit the firearm with a 20″ barrel, it becomes a non-restricted firearm again. It doesn’t HAVE to make sense, it’s GOVERNMENT POLICY.
LESS THAN 18″/457mm BARREL LENGTH RULES:
CC s. 84(1) “prohibited firearm” (d): If the barrel has been SHORTENED to less than 18″/457mm, after leaving the factory, “by sawing, cutting or ANY other alteration or modification” that forces the firearm into the “prohibited firearm” class.
NOTE: The firearm is NOT forced into the “prohibited firearm” class if it left the factory with the barrel at below-18″/457mm barrel length. I have, for example, a .22 rimfire semi-auto 30-shot rifle with a 9-3/4″ barrel, a .410 single-shot shotgun with an 11-3/4″ barrel, two 12-gauge pump-action shotguns with 14″ barrels, a .22 rimfire pump-action rifle with a 17-7/8″ custom barrel and a .223 calibre rifle with a 14″ barrel — AND ALL OF THEM ARE NON-RESTRICTED. THAT IS BECAUSE THEY EITHER LEFT THE FACTORY WITH THOSE BARRELS, OR WERE FITTED WITH FACTORY- OR CUSTOM-MADE BARRELS IN THOSE LENGTHS AT SOME LATER DATE, and were NEVER fitted with a longer barrel. One left the factory with NO barrel, and so a 14″ barrel could be legally fitted.
My assembly of that collection of idiocy demonstrations was deliberate. The law apparently tried to prohibit certain lengths of barrel or firearm — and failed miserably, because the limits are all conditional. Assembling the necessary parts to change one of your firearms into one of my above-noted configurations is something you can do as a hobby. It is a risky hobby. You may be forced to defend the legality of what you have, or have done, in a court of law — at heavy expense — because some police officer does NOT understand all the above technicalities. You may even be convicted — because some JUDGE does not understand firearms law. Did YOU understand it before reading ALL of this posting? Are you SURE you understand the limits NOW?
It is IMPORTANT to understand what you can and cannot do.
OVERALL LENGTH LESS THAN 26″/660mm RULES:
CC s. 84(1) “prohibited firearm” (b): This is another clause of the same law — the one cited immediately above — and it applies in the same way. If the firearm ARRIVES at the “less than 26″/660mm in overall length” condition by “sawing, cutting” etc., then it is forced into the “prohibited firearm” class. If it left the factory at that too-short length, the limit does NOT apply. It is non-restricted, UNLESS it is semi-automatic AND centrefire.
Example: A Remington Model 870 pump-action shotgun that has been fitted with a Scattergun Technologies 12″/305mm barrel and a Pachmayr pistol grip is less than 26″/660mm in overall length, but is NOT “prohibited.” It is a “prohibited firearm” if this was done to a Remington 870 that left the factory with those parts, but it is non-restricted if it was re-manufactured and left the Scattergun Technologies factory with them. It doesn’t HAVE to make sense — it’s GOVERNMENT POLICY.
Note that WHICH class the short firearm becomes — non-restricted, “restricted” OR “prohibited” — depends upon HOW it ARRIVED at that shortened length. That strongly reinforces what I have said above about the length determination — overall OR barrel length — NOT being enough to decide which class the firearm falls into. Knowing the WAY the firearm or barrel ARRIVED at that short length is vital to understanding this area of the law when determining the class of firearm.
I hope that this clarifies the situation for you — as much as is possible with such badly-written law.
Note that a “firearm” is defined, in CC s. 2 “firearm,” as: “a barrelled firearm from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled firearm and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm.”
What that means is that the “frame or receiver” is a firearm. If you add more uncontrolled ‘spare parts’ to the basic “firearm” (the “frame or receiver”), it is STILL a “firearm.”
You are NOT required to register ‘uncontrolled spare parts.’ There is no way to identify such parts — they usually do not have Serial numbers. You are NOT required to register anything but the “firearm” — and that means only the “frame or receiver.”
You may convert all registrations you now hold to registrations of the “frame or receiver” — and that will make your registration far more flexible. The firearms control bureaucracy has added a special subdivision — “frame or receiver ONLY.” That is NOT how a “frame or receiver” should be registered if there is even one screw attached to it. It should be registered as a partial firearm, NOT a “frame or receiver ONLY.” The government’s computer program cannot handle that variation, because the software is poorly designed and written, but that is what it should be registered as.
Whether or not a firearm is registered, the CLASS that the firearm falls into is controlled by the descriptions given in the current CC s. 84(1) “firearm”, “restricted firearm” and “prohibited firearm” definitions.
There are no definitions of non-restricted firearm or deactivated firearm.
The definition of “firearm” is crippled in current law by the CC s. 2 “firearm” definition, and by the C-68 CC s. 84(3) conditional and partial redefinition of the words “firearm”, “restricted firearm” and “prohibited firearm.”
STUDY all this stuff. Yes, you CAN understand it. Firearms control law is NOT a can of worms. It is a barrel of rattlesnakes.
freddyfour
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Brant County, Ontario
I have had one rifle shorten by Casey, 26" varmint barrel to 22", among a few other projects from him. I would highly recommend him, great guy and if you are local he has a beautiful shop.
stevesummit
CGN Regular
- Location
- spruce grove
If you’re building from scratch in a bolt action, just the 26” OAL has to be observed.
