Custom rifle accuracy and value?

hawk-i

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If I have a gunsmith build a custom rifle, does the smith guarantee any accuracy level of the rifle or would a guy be shyt out of luck if it will only do MOA?

Some high end factory guns come with a 1/2 MOA guarantee, which gives me some level of protection.

Also next question is, how good does a custom hold its value and does the name of the smith make a difference in the value?
 
A custom will loose about 20 to 30 % of its value right from the get go.
That was my experience with a couple of full customs,that I had built.
If I recall correctly, it’s been several years.
I had a couple of full customs, done by Insite, beautiful builds.
Cost me about $4500 +
I believe I got back less than $3000 , both had less than 150 rnds through them.

The factory options are way better today , than 5 years ago.

I’m skeptical on the 1/2 MOA guarantee, under what conditions? How do you really know it shot 1/2 MOA, in the first place.
 
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It has been my experience since about 1970 a commercial action with a quality barrel installed (Shilen was a favourite) in a hunting caliber, with the action glass bedded and the barrel floated had no problem shooting 3/4 of an inch and often 1/2 inch groups. Heavier barrels in target calibers pretty well shot 3/8's of an inch. Today it is common for 1/2 inch rifles. I never have offered any accuracy guarantees. Many shooters are not as capable as the rifle is.

If one wants a guarantee that can be arranged and the price of course will be higher with the load work up and testing and proof.

I have seen factory rifles shoot under 1/2 inch with factory ammo and they come with no specific guarantee of accuracy.
 
It has been my experience since about 1970 a commercial action with a quality barrel installed (Shilen was a favourite) in a hunting caliber, with the action glass bedded and the barrel floated had no problem shooting 3/4 of an inch and often 1/2 inch groups. Heavier barrels in target calibers pretty well shot 3/8's of an inch. Today it is common for 1/2 inch rifles. I never have offered any accuracy guarantees. Many shooters are not as capable as the rifle is.

If one wants a guarantee that can be arranged and the price of course will be higher with the load work up and testing and proof.

I have seen factory rifles shoot under 1/2 inch with factory ammo and they come with no specific guarantee of accuracy.
Yes, but who’s to say the shooter is capable? Most people will automatically assume the rifle will just magically shoot 1/2 MOA .
Also, I would think that any Smith,who knows what they’re doing,should be capable of the same, high quality work.

I don’t get what the Chou brothers can offer, over other capable smiths? Other than a much higher cost.
 
It depends on the type of custom rifle, it's purpose and the gunsmith involved. The thing is, it's not very difficult to make a 1/2 minute rifle. A quality barrel, chambered for a reasonable cartridge, on a decent action, properly bedded into a synthetic or wood stock and Bob's your uncle. Any accuracy oriented gunsmith is going to be aware of what is and is not important in the construction of an accurate rifle. The formula is well established. So, if small groups are the only criteria, it is fairly easy to accomplish. Some gunsmiths will even give a guarantee. Those who do so, if they have any sense, will charge enough to pay for their time going to the range and testing. Then, assuming they are successful in the build and the test, they will be able to guarantee that they can shoot the rifle to the level attained. They cannot, of course, guarantee that you can do it.
As far as value is concerned, any rifle is worth what the buyer thinks it is. Nothing more; nothing less.
 
So what happens if the rifle doesn't shoot what it should...does the customer have to pay for another barrel and labour to install it?
 
Most of what a rifle has to offer in the accuracy department has to do with the barrel... If you get a good one thing's are better... Rifles don't shoot themselves so a capable shooter is required.. I had a guy ask me to build him a 1/4 " 7 Rem mag .. I asked him if he could shoot 1/4" and loaned him a rifle that would... He shot 3/4" with it and I showed him that 1 /4 was capable a few minutes later... .. Told him to find another guy as well... ����
 
It has been my experience since about 1970 a commercial action with a quality barrel installed (Shilen was a favourite) in a hunting caliber, with the action glass bedded and the barrel floated had no problem shooting 3/4 of an inch and often 1/2 inch groups. Heavier barrels in target calibers pretty well shot 3/8's of an inch. Today it is common for 1/2 inch rifles. I never have offered any accuracy guarantees. Many shooters are not as capable as the rifle is.

If one wants a guarantee that can be arranged and the price of course will be higher with the load work up and testing and proof.

I have seen factory rifles shoot under 1/2 inch with factory ammo and they come with no specific guarantee of accuracy.

I only have 1 factory rifle that came with a 1/2 MOA guarantee (it does it and better with some loads).

I also have factory rifles with 1 MOA guarantees that will often shoot 1/2 MOA groups, some better.

However, I had a Christensen Arms Traverse in 300PRC that had difficulty holding 1 MOA accuracy...the second time I sent it back for warranty they put a new barrel on it No Charge, problem solved :)

So if I got you to build me a rifle, say an Anti-x, with a carbon barrel, bedded into a AG Composite, TT trigger, etc, in 6.5 PRC and I couldn't get better than close to MOA accuracy what would the normal coarse of action be?

Is it something I'd have to sort out with the supplier of the items on my own?

Obviously a bad barrel isn't the fault of the smith.
 
There are not guarantees when it comes to custom rifle builds.

Even the best barrel makers can turn out an inconsistent barrel.

Today, most barrels are pretty good, but it's still luck of the draw.

If you're going to get a custom build done, you don't mention chambering to a wildcat or one of the improved versions of a standard off the shelf cartridge.

A custom 30-06 with a standard SAAMI chamber that doesn't rely on custom handloads, will retain more of its value than a 30-06 Ackly Improved chambered rifle.

You also have to consider a lot of other aspects, such as custom trigger, stock, magazines etc

If you're getting a local smith to do the job, as well as work up a load with YOUR preffered bullet shape/type/caliber, expect to pay a significant premium. This would include providing the set of dies, cases, bullets, powder, primers and even some loaded ammunition, with proof targets.

The premium could easily be as high as the cost of the build. TIME IS EXPENSIVE.

I bought a custo Kenny Jarrett rifle appx a decade back. Ordered it directly from Mr Jarrett's website and after some telephone confiremation.

The fellow I spoke to was very knowledgeable and helpful.

The rifle was chambered for the 280 Remington, in a Tri Lock action, bedded in a lovely custom synthetic stock.

This rifle would shoot off the shelf Remington factory loaded, 150 grain Kore Lokt offerings into under one moa, if I did my part well.

The rifle actually shot better with custom handloads, tailored for it.

Jarrett would not guarantee any of their builds, at that time, to consistently shoot ANY factory loads into less than an inch at 100yds.

This isn't surprising at all, considering how much components change from one lot to the next.

Here's something from their site:

Jarrett Barrels
In the 1980’s, during his quest for the ultimate in hunting rifle accuracy, Kenny Jarrett discovered that 27% of the high quality barrels he was buying would not shoot to his standard of sub one minute. These barrels were well built to the bench rest standard of the day, which required a bore diameter with a consistency of 3/10ths of a thousandth from the breech to the muzzle. Kenny determined that to achieve 1/2 M.O.A. performance, a barrel must have a deviation of no more than 1/10th of a thousandth. No one manufactured a barrel with that standard, so Jarrett began its proprietary barrel program. Each barrel receives 1100 hand lapped strokes to achieve the 1/10th of a thousandth deviation, assuring performance that has set a new industry standard.

I sold that rifle, not because it didn't do as promised, but because when loaded to its full potential, the recoil was brutal.

The rifle only weighed 8 pounds (3.6kg) with scope, fully loaded. The 22 inch barrel was good and didn't significantly change point of impact from a cold first shot to the fifth shot.

It was a great rifle. The young fellow I sold it to, from Cranbrook loves it.

Did I recoup my costs? NO.

That rifle didn't do anything better than any of the CNC manufactured offerings off the shelf at the local gunshop, at less than half the price.
 
I think the majority of custom builder in the US were really good at marketing... many of us up here were building rifles that shot every bit as well for 1/2 the price of one the those US builds...
 
So what happens if the rifle doesn't shoot what it should...does the customer have to pay for another barrel and labour to install it?

I have had a couple of barrels that didn't shoot as well as they should have... the maker supplied a new barrel, I bit the cost of install. The customer was out some ammo and some wait time... I was the loser.
 
I have had a couple of barrels that didn't shoot as well as they should have... the maker supplied a new barrel, I bit the cost of install. The customer was out some ammo and some wait time... I was the loser.
I wouldn’t go that far, you also gain experience from every Job at the cost of some time.
Especially if you enjoy the job.
 
Theres a guy in my club that do scope adjustement, he use to be an olympic shooter and now in his 70. One man wanted his scope adjusted bulleyes at 200m, so he did and as usual provided the target with the grouping done at 200m. The client come back after a week saying that it was bull#### and that the grouping have been done at 50m or so since he could not hit the bull at 200. Hearing that statement he presented himself to the client and ask for 3 bullet that he promptly shoot bull at 200m, giving is rifle back he told the client that his accuracy problem was standing behind the rifle.

Even if you had a F1 ferrari you would not drive like Schumacher.
 
Theres a guy in my club that do scope adjustement, he use to be an olympic shooter and now in his 70. One man wanted his scope adjusted bulleyes at 200m, so he did and as usual provided the target with the grouping done at 200m. The client come back after a week saying that it was bull#### and that the grouping have been done at 50m or so since he could not hit the bull at 200. Hearing that statement he presented himself to the client and ask for 3 bullet that he promptly shoot bull at 200m, giving is rifle back he told the client that his accuracy problem was standing behind the rifle.

Even if you had a F1 ferrari you would not drive like Schumacher.

If you go to the range this time of the year you see lots of 4 MOA groups and guys thinking they are good to go but that isn't the question asked in this thread.

It was guarantee of accuracy and value :)
 
Custom Rifle ?

I haven't ordered a custom rifle tho I have had Custom Fly Rods made.

They were custom made for me by a great fly fisher man with a reputation
of building Xlnt Rods . They were not guaranteed to catch fish , they were
made of outstanding materials by a man with outstanding skills .

I had planned on keeping & using these rods all my life.

If I were to have a custom Rifle ordered I would do the research , follow the
same protocol , which ever Guarantee's they attached I would expect
and look forward to having a life long treasure .

... skwerl
 
If a person buys an action with Guaranteed headspace along with a prefit barrel for that action, does one even need a smith to put it together?
 
Hell no! The screw together, pick your part, system is the future of the custom rifle. Screw on a barrel, screw on the plastic stock of choice, buy a trigger and a big scope and Bob's your uncle.
 
If a person buys an action with Guaranteed headspace along with a prefit barrel for that action, does one even need a smith to put it together?

Not sure about the words that you used? Assuming that you refer to a bottleneck or belted cartridge. "Headspace" is measured from the bolt face (part of the action) to a reference point within the barrel's chamber. So until the barrel is fitted to the action, and there is a chamber, there is normally no "headspace" to measure. Unless there is something new that a seller can guarantee a headspace within an action - I do not know what that is?? You normally create or "set" the headspace when you install the pre-chambered (pre-fit) barrel, or when you ream the chamber (in other cases). Typically requires the use of ground steel headspace gauges to "set" and check headspace correctly?

I did recently install a pre-threaded and pre-chambered Schultz and Larsen PALMA barrel into a random M1917 receiver - required a very moderate amount of lapping to the square threads but it now spins solidly onto the receiver front, hand tight first, then a very minor "snug" with a barrel vice and receiver wrench - and head space is less than .002" longer than GO gauge, with the bolt that came with that receiver - not "matching". I have no clue how they could do that, but they did!

Then leads to torque of action screws, pillars and bedding - may or may not be an issue for you - irrelevant to whether the rifle will go "bang" or not. Same with attaching scope bases and installing rings and then aligning a scope. All can be done "at home" - like most things, there is one or two "right" ways and several "wrong" ways. But can surely been done.

As an example for you - I bought my Grandson a Remington 783 in 243 Win. Already was getting complaints about "not enough power" for deer. So, I have also bought a new, never fired "factory take-off" Rem 783 barrel in 308 Win. I also had to get an IBI wrench for that barrel nut, and I already have Clymer GO and NOGO gauges for 308 Win. Plus I have a barrel vice as well as bigger bench vice to hold things in place to work on when the time comes. Brownell's videos pretty much show you how to do it - just need all the other toys that guy uses - like a 1/2" torque wrench...
 
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