- Location
- Richmond, BC, CANADA
No. 4 Mk. I (T) rifles are becoming very expensive and this causes several problems. I bought my first set, a mint BSA 1945 No.4 Mk. I (T) complete with No. 8 Mk. I scope case and No. 15 Mk. I wooden transit chest from Lever Arms in Vancouver about 1971. I paid $75.
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:
Ignorant buyers can buy what seems to be a legitimate sniper rifle or complete equipment set, but which later turns out not to be correct. Sellers, including auctions houses, often honestly believe that they have the real thing and sell with honest intentions. One cannot be an expert on everything.
Fakers however find that they can make a lot of money. The difference is that fakers will add or alter markings and try to deceive a buyer. Here is an example of a real sniper rifle and real sniper scope, but on which a faker altered markings and fabricated a fake rare front sight guard to make it appear to be all original and matching.
https://imageevent.com/badgerdog/britishservicerifles/1933enfieldno4mk1tsnipertrials;jsessionid=netnpedlk1.cow?n=0&z=9&c=4&x=1&m=24&w=0&p=0
The old advice applies "Buy the book, then buy the gun." The topic is very complicated and there are many pitfalls. The most common examples seen in auctions etc. are the 1944-1945 examples made by BSA at Shirley, England. Their wartime code was "M47C" The following points refer to those rifles.
When a No. 4 rifle was converted to sniper equipment, the telescope and its bracket were mated to a rifle. This ensured the greatest accuracy. To keep these parts together in service, the serial numbers were cross-referenced on the equipment.
If there is no "T", and/or if the numbers are not as described, then "Caveat emptor" (Latin for "Buyer beware"). At that point, take off your "rose coloured glasses", keep your wallet closed, and seek expert advice.
The telescope's serial number was stamped into the wood on top of the butt, just below the cocking piece. This seems to have been the practice since the first conversions were done in 1941, including those converted from 1930s Trials rifles.
The bracket which holds the telescope was carefully mated to a rifle. Most will be found with the serial number of that rifle permanently marked on the left side of the bracket.
One of the best indicators of an authentic set are a No. 8 scope case as the British examples had both the rifle and the telescope serial numbers marked on them. Some No. 8 Mk. I (steel) and Mk. 2 (canvas) telescope cases have had fake markings applied or altered by fakers, but it is yet another area where a faker can go wrong. A faker not only has to reproduce the markings, but also age everything appropriately.
Many of the No. 4 Mk. I (T) sets sold in North America have mismatched scope sets. Apparently some surplus dealers stored the scope sets separately from the rifles and when selling them, did not ensure that the correct scope went with the rifle. Original matching sets are more valuable for collecting and for shooting and command higher prices.
The wooden transit chests are NOT usually permanently marked with the rifle and scope serial numbers. Exceptions are few. Normally they simply had a paper label at one end of the chest with the rifle serial number pencilled or written in ink. This way the chest could be reused to ship another rifle back for repairs etc. and all the QM staff had to do was change the paper label.
Early conversions are more difficult to verify as markings were not standardized. Long Branch conversions are dealt with in Clive Law's book WITHOUT WARNING. Stevens-Savage conversions are the most tricky because someone finds a Stevens-Savage No. 4 Mk. I (T. LESS TELESCOPE) which is already half-converted by Holland & Holland, and just adds a scope set and perhaps fake markings.
Reminder: BUYER BEWARE! Do your homework when buying a No. 4 Mk. I (T) sniper rifle.
Recommended books:
THE LEE-ENFIELD by Ian Skennerton (2007)
THE BRITISH SNIPER by Steve Houghton (2018)
WITHOUT WARNING by Clive Law (2004) (often available at hobby stores)
Out of print books and hard to find books such as:
THE BRITISH SNIPER by Ian Skennerton (1984)
AN ARMOURER'S APPRENTICE by Peter Laidler & Ian Skennerton
TELESCOPE SIGHTING No. 32 by Peter Laidler
There are some good articles on the Internet:
4(T) Or Not 4(T) That Is The Question http://www.warpc.org/our-collection/4t-or-not-4t-that-is-the-question/
Milsurps.com Knowledge Library
https://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=120-united-kingdom
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:
- Rifle serial number on left side of body usually also marked on left side of the telescope bracket.
- Telescope serial number engraved on top of telescope and also stamped into the top of the butt, just below the cocking piece.
- Completed sniper rifle conversions almost always have a "T" stamped into the left sidewall after the model designation. This was standard by 1944 for BSA conversions.
Ignorant buyers can buy what seems to be a legitimate sniper rifle or complete equipment set, but which later turns out not to be correct. Sellers, including auctions houses, often honestly believe that they have the real thing and sell with honest intentions. One cannot be an expert on everything.
Fakers however find that they can make a lot of money. The difference is that fakers will add or alter markings and try to deceive a buyer. Here is an example of a real sniper rifle and real sniper scope, but on which a faker altered markings and fabricated a fake rare front sight guard to make it appear to be all original and matching.
https://imageevent.com/badgerdog/britishservicerifles/1933enfieldno4mk1tsnipertrials;jsessionid=netnpedlk1.cow?n=0&z=9&c=4&x=1&m=24&w=0&p=0
The old advice applies "Buy the book, then buy the gun." The topic is very complicated and there are many pitfalls. The most common examples seen in auctions etc. are the 1944-1945 examples made by BSA at Shirley, England. Their wartime code was "M47C" The following points refer to those rifles.
When a No. 4 rifle was converted to sniper equipment, the telescope and its bracket were mated to a rifle. This ensured the greatest accuracy. To keep these parts together in service, the serial numbers were cross-referenced on the equipment.
If there is no "T", and/or if the numbers are not as described, then "Caveat emptor" (Latin for "Buyer beware"). At that point, take off your "rose coloured glasses", keep your wallet closed, and seek expert advice.
The telescope's serial number was stamped into the wood on top of the butt, just below the cocking piece. This seems to have been the practice since the first conversions were done in 1941, including those converted from 1930s Trials rifles.
- Only after the process was completed with a bracket and telescope fitted to the rifle, did it became a No. 4 Mk. I (T) and a letter "T" was stamped into the left sidewall, officially changing the model designation of the rifle.
- The highest telescope serial number that one can expect to see on a British No. 4 Mk. I (T) is about 29,000.
- If there is no telescope serial number, but there is an "S51" stamped on the underside of the butt, you can expect that there will not be a "T" stamped into the left sidewall of the rifle after the model designation. These were unfinished conversions, called No. 4 Mk. I (T. LESS TELESCOPE). Holland & Holland, which did most of the British sniper conversions, had the wartime code "S51". Their first phase was to fit the scope pads and cheek rests. Evidence indicates that the rifles were then held until the personnel fitting the telescope brackets and scopes could do the second phase. Most of those No. 4 Mk. I or Mk.I* (T. LESS TELESCOPE) rifles were 1941-1942 dated Stevens-Savage rifles, apparently shelved once the decision was made to only convert BSA made rifles. H&H could then know exactly what to expect for quality, dimensions etc. At the end of the war, when the contract ended at a certain time, it was "down tools lads as the government is not paying us to finish these." Unfinished conversions, which now included BSA at this time, were returned to the British government. It is thought that there were perhaps about 3,000 unfinished conversions, both 1941-1942 and 1944-1945 production. These rifles are usually found in excellent condition as most sat in storage, unused, until they were sold surplus. The danger here is that anyone can stick an orphaned original scope and bracket, or a replica set, on. It will fit, but it is not collimated with the barrel. There is no problem with an owner doing this, though buyers need to be careful. The replica/fake scopes being made now usually have a WWII date and serial number, so be very careful. Fakers love the unfinished conversions and when they add a telescope set, they sometimes add FAKE numbers on the top of the butt below the cocking piece. An example has a mismatched scope set and the faker stamped the bracket's rifle number into the butt instead of the telescopes's serial number.
- If the telescope was later changed in military service, the old number would be struck out and the new number struck in adjacent to it.
The bracket which holds the telescope was carefully mated to a rifle. Most will be found with the serial number of that rifle permanently marked on the left side of the bracket.
One of the best indicators of an authentic set are a No. 8 scope case as the British examples had both the rifle and the telescope serial numbers marked on them. Some No. 8 Mk. I (steel) and Mk. 2 (canvas) telescope cases have had fake markings applied or altered by fakers, but it is yet another area where a faker can go wrong. A faker not only has to reproduce the markings, but also age everything appropriately.
Many of the No. 4 Mk. I (T) sets sold in North America have mismatched scope sets. Apparently some surplus dealers stored the scope sets separately from the rifles and when selling them, did not ensure that the correct scope went with the rifle. Original matching sets are more valuable for collecting and for shooting and command higher prices.
The wooden transit chests are NOT usually permanently marked with the rifle and scope serial numbers. Exceptions are few. Normally they simply had a paper label at one end of the chest with the rifle serial number pencilled or written in ink. This way the chest could be reused to ship another rifle back for repairs etc. and all the QM staff had to do was change the paper label.
Early conversions are more difficult to verify as markings were not standardized. Long Branch conversions are dealt with in Clive Law's book WITHOUT WARNING. Stevens-Savage conversions are the most tricky because someone finds a Stevens-Savage No. 4 Mk. I (T. LESS TELESCOPE) which is already half-converted by Holland & Holland, and just adds a scope set and perhaps fake markings.
Reminder: BUYER BEWARE! Do your homework when buying a No. 4 Mk. I (T) sniper rifle.
Recommended books:
THE LEE-ENFIELD by Ian Skennerton (2007)
THE BRITISH SNIPER by Steve Houghton (2018)
WITHOUT WARNING by Clive Law (2004) (often available at hobby stores)
Out of print books and hard to find books such as:
THE BRITISH SNIPER by Ian Skennerton (1984)
AN ARMOURER'S APPRENTICE by Peter Laidler & Ian Skennerton
TELESCOPE SIGHTING No. 32 by Peter Laidler
There are some good articles on the Internet:
4(T) Or Not 4(T) That Is The Question http://www.warpc.org/our-collection/4t-or-not-4t-that-is-the-question/
Milsurps.com Knowledge Library
https://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=120-united-kingdom
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