Results with barrel tuners and brakes

Very nice testing day. Took my 10/22 and a bolt rifle to test at 100yds. Winds were light and switchy. These are just my quick thoughts on the major observations for both rifles.

1 - Tuner makes a very positive difference. Did improve ammo that didn't work from horrid to just bad (shot with and w/o tuner). Did make ammo it liked group tighter... from good to great. So this doesn't eliminate lot and ammo testing but it can make a bad, or good, situation better.

2 - Small adjustments can have a huge affect. Running a full size tuna can. moving 1 or even 1/2 number can change from excellent to nothing special. When you find the better setting, don't be shy to test in very small adjustments on either side. At my desired setting, I did multiple 5rds groups.

3 - Tightening everything was better - hand tight tuner started well then results were irratic. Used a wrench to tighten and results settled. Allen lock screw tight was better then loosened.

4 - Good Results at 100yds also shot well as far as I would typically compete. Best tune and ammo for the 10/22 at 100yds shot really well at distance that needed 18mils of up from 100yds zero (forgot rangefinder). Going to guess around 330/340m. No adjustments made... just dialed up and shot.

This confirms my experience from last fall testing and what I saw earlier this year (didn't know if cold was helping or hurting)

I like them...

Jerry
 
rlaunay said:
I've used both tuners and brakes, as well as whatever random objects I've had on hand to add weight to muzzles, and have found success with a few things in limited amounts.

To be brief ish, my most recent testing was with a Tuna Can. My goal was not accuracy related - i was looking to balance my rifle without losing much accuracy.

At 50y, my rifle consistently shoots in the .2s to .5s with most lots of SK ammo with a muzzle velocity around 1105FPS, without a tuner. Doesn't really matter what color the box is as long as it's of the faster variety.

Measuring increased accuracy at 50y by adjusting the tuner was a fools errand - nothing I tried made any repeatable improvements, but some settings made obvious worse groups.

At 100y, I was able to play with the tune and make some improvements. I thought 100 would be a sweet spot to test because group sizes would be big enough that improvements could be measured and trends seen, and wind in good conditions wouldn't make testing totally worthless. I was able to take pretty consistent groups between 3/4" - 1.25" (rifle without tuner) and tighten them up a bit better with the tuner, the largest right around an inch (and most frequent) but the smallest tightening up to maybe 5/8". It sounds great, but in reality the average was probably still within 0.1" of each other.

Then I took that tune and shot it at 50. My groups were averaging closer to 3/4", doubling what typical non tuner results looked like.

Same tune went out to 200y. Non tuner typical results of 3-4" vertical turned into 7-9" groups with the tuner. It was at that point (and that point was the night before a match) that the tuner left my rifle for good and I re-zeroed back to my no tune POI.

To summarize my results and thought process:

Any ammo can be tuned for better results at a single distance, but those better results will probably not out-perform just finding a better lot if possible. And depending on how accurate the rifle is, the increased accuracy may be minimal if even observable.

Tuning for one distance definitely does not guarantee success at others. If I was hell-bent on making an inaccurate rifle perform, I could probably find something that makes a moderate increase at some distance with minimal losses at others that may make sense to use.

In the end, I came to the realization that my rifle performs spectacularly without a tuner, and the tuner made it so much worse for the multi distance/multi conditions/multi ammo reality that I shoot, that it wasn't worth the perfect rifle balance the tuner gave to me. Shooting 3/4" groups at 100y vs 1.25" groups at 100y isn't going to gain me any points - but shooting 3/4" groups instead of 1/4" groups at 50y and 9" groups instead of 4" groups at 200y is very likely going to lose me some.


Same type of results were found on a second rifle of mine, as well as a friends who I loaned the can to before he removed it from his rifle.

It's not exhaustive testing, but it was enough for me to never put one on my rifle again. If I was shooting BR matched at set distances, it would make sense. For barricade benchrest, the time and money invested in finding the "perfect tune" would be much better spent practicing building solid positions and reading the environment.

YMMV. The tuner didn't meet my requirements, but it may act entirely differently for others.
Click to expand...

Don't know much about 22 lr barrel tuners. Built some that did work to reduce groups but looked ugly on rifle. Had goo results with the Browning Boss on a 7mm Rem. Mag. and .223. The 7mm shot 1" groups at 100 yds. but 18" at 300 yds. Adjusted Boss and now get 2.5" groups at 300 yds. The Browning .223 was at 1.5" at 100 yds. and now at .5" after adjusting Boss.
 
rlaunay said:
I've used both tuners and brakes, as well as whatever random objects I've had on hand to add weight to muzzles, and have found success with a few things in limited amounts.

To be brief ish, my most recent testing was with a Tuna Can. My goal was not accuracy related - i was looking to balance my rifle without losing much accuracy.

At 50y, my rifle consistently shoots in the .2s to .5s with most lots of SK ammo with a muzzle velocity around 1105FPS, without a tuner. Doesn't really matter what color the box is as long as it's of the faster variety.

Measuring increased accuracy at 50y by adjusting the tuner was a fools errand - nothing I tried made any repeatable improvements, but some settings made obvious worse groups.

At 100y, I was able to play with the tune and make some improvements. I thought 100 would be a sweet spot to test because group sizes would be big enough that improvements could be measured and trends seen, and wind in good conditions wouldn't make testing totally worthless. I was able to take pretty consistent groups between 3/4" - 1.25" (rifle without tuner) and tighten them up a bit better with the tuner, the largest right around an inch (and most frequent) but the smallest tightening up to maybe 5/8". It sounds great, but in reality the average was probably still within 0.1" of each other.

Then I took that tune and shot it at 50. My groups were averaging closer to 3/4", doubling what typical non tuner results looked like.

Same tune went out to 200y. Non tuner typical results of 3-4" vertical turned into 7-9" groups with the tuner. It was at that point (and that point was the night before a match) that the tuner left my rifle for good and I re-zeroed back to my no tune POI.

To summarize my results and thought process:

Any ammo can be tuned for better results at a single distance, but those better results will probably not out-perform just finding a better lot if possible. And depending on how accurate the rifle is, the increased accuracy may be minimal if even observable.

Tuning for one distance definitely does not guarantee success at others. If I was hell-bent on making an inaccurate rifle perform, I could probably find something that makes a moderate increase at some distance with minimal losses at others that may make sense to use.

In the end, I came to the realization that my rifle performs spectacularly without a tuner, and the tuner made it so much worse for the multi distance/multi conditions/multi ammo reality that I shoot, that it wasn't worth the perfect rifle balance the tuner gave to me. Shooting 3/4" groups at 100y vs 1.25" groups at 100y isn't going to gain me any points - but shooting 3/4" groups instead of 1/4" groups at 50y and 9" groups instead of 4" groups at 200y is very likely going to lose me some.


Same type of results were found on a second rifle of mine, as well as a friends who I loaned the can to before he removed it from his rifle.

It's not exhaustive testing, but it was enough for me to never put one on my rifle again. If I was shooting BR matched at set distances, it would make sense. For barricade benchrest, the time and money invested in finding the "perfect tune" would be much better spent practicing building solid positions and reading the environment.

YMMV. The tuner didn't meet my requirements, but it may act entirely differently for others.
Click to expand...

Don't know much about 22 lr barrel tuners. Built some that did work to reduce groups but looked ugly on rifle. Had good results with the Browning Boss on a 7mm Rem. Mag. and Browning Boss .223. The 7mm shot 1" groups at 100 yds. but 18" at 300 yds. Adjusted Boss and now get 2.5" groups at 300 yds. The Browning .223 was at 1.5" at 100 yds. and now at .5" after adjusting Boss.
 
Basically a barrel tuner is adjusting the Sine wave of the barrel during firing. Theoretically the top or bottom of the wave is where your attempting to have the bullet exit the barrel. Its where its momentarily not in motion as its in transitional state from going up to going down so in theory motionless. In ideal situations your basically trying to flatten the wave to create the longest time the barrel is motionless. Short fat stiff barrels seem to accomplish this better than long skinny barrels. Exeptions in firearms are always the rule and a skinny barrel could turn out to be a tack driver. Thamks for sharing your results.
 

I think a critical interpretation of the results in this video is that the tuner is having no effect, and we are simply witnessing population sampling with small sample sizes. I say this because the groups with the "best settings" at the end of the video contain all of the earlier 3 shot groups that were at "bad settings".
 
5 and 45 are likely the same harmonic on the barrel. I think alot of shooter don't understand that barrel harmonics is cyclical and repeats. The pattern of affect whether due to load tuning and/or tuner adjustment, will repeat time and again. If the tuner is heavy enough, it might repeat less then 1 revolution... if lighter, maybe more like 1.5 revs.... but it will repeat.

Now one of the 'revolutions' might be the tightest but you will need to increase the testing to ensure that it is just not a sampling error. Also, between areas where the 'node' is, there is alot of crappy irratic groups... just like what he shot. In fact, targets 13 to 15 are exactly the type of groups shooters get in trouble with trying to make that flyer go into that 1 holer... it will not cause that pattern IS tune related.

I would leave it at 1st revolution 5 and enjoy for THAT lot of Std+

If nothing else, without... big group. with, much more stable. So adding that weight made the combo more compatible. for those that are still unsure, grab 10oz of wheel weights and some hose clamps. Shoot a decent match ammo at 50.. or better 100yds. Do 3X5rds without anything on the barrel. Now add that weight and just clamp on the barrel... did the group size and pattern change?

If yes, then you know that combo can be affected with a barrel weight... and a tuner might be beneficial.

I am surprised that the Std+ in the video shot as well as it did as it usually is more prone to flyers... but he has a great lot.

YMMV

Jerry
 
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Longstud said:
Basically a barrel tuner is adjusting the Sine wave of the barrel during firing. Theoretically the top or bottom of the wave is where your attempting to have the bullet exit the barrel. Its where its momentarily not in motion as its in transitional state from going up to going down so in theory motionless. In ideal situations your basically trying to flatten the wave to create the longest time the barrel is motionless. Short fat stiff barrels seem to accomplish this better than long skinny barrels. Exeptions in firearms are always the rule and a skinny barrel could turn out to be a tack driver. Thamks for sharing your results.
Click to expand...

This is probably why there are some questioning the value of a tuner. Sometimes the first target is poor and it keeps getting better. I will see groups tightening as the shoot progresses.
Testing a tuner does not stop after five rounds, and as previously said "They all come with instructions" but of course that is one of those guy things!
When testing ammo, my tests run the length of a box with five -10-shot groups without the tuner. Once the lot has been selected the tuner goes back on and the lot is tuned.
Installing the tuner expecting immediate results is not the route neither I nor my mentor used.
 
horseman2 said:
This is probably why there are some questioning the value of a tuner. Sometimes the first target is poor and it keeps getting better. I will see groups tightening as the shoot progresses.
Testing a tuner does not stop after five rounds, and as previously said "They all come with instructions" but of course that is one of those guy things!
When testing ammo, my tests run the length of a box with five -10-shot groups without the tuner. Once the lot has been selected the tuner goes back on and the lot is tuned.
Installing the tuner expecting immediate results is not the route neither I nor my mentor used.
Click to expand...

Root problem is expecting a tuner to make a mid/low grade ammo into XACT... which it will not. The large number of 'can't repeat results' while using a low/mid grade ammo... Garbage in, Garbage out.

Then making big adjustments in the tuner setting between groups. If a barrel is going to respond and the tuner is heavy enough, there will be a change on target for every 1/12 to 1/10 of revolution. I have never had to go past one revolution... except to confirm that the pattern was repeating. No shortage of shooters reporting turning 1/2 to full revolutions and getting no where (or to exactly the tune of the previous revolution)

Brutally simple device which many over complicate or endow with 'mythical' powers.

Maybe it helps... maybe it doesn't... just another tool... but start with the highest grade of ammo and go from there.

Jerry
 
Tuner are efficient in 1 inches- short barrel. A tuner is a weight. Shorter the barrel, more weight is needed to make it work.
To make a tuner work, you must first, find the best ammo for you gun. A tuner will not shrink to match level,bad ammo.

A tuner of the proper weight, will remove vertical in a load. A light tuner on a heavy - short barrel might not do anything until weight is added on to it. The Harrel tuner is made to accept screw in weight of different thickness for that purpose.

In .22, Anschutzs barrel are typically .960 in diameter and tuner are used extensively in competition, up to the point, that without it, no chance to win.
Same in Benchrest, nobody will show up at a National match without it, if a shooter want any chance to win anything.

But like anything, sometime it goes fast to find a tune, and other time, it take quite a bit of testing. In my book, a tuner is a competition oriented device, not something to install on every gun as some will like to make you believe.

I seen at the range, a fellow shooter who just got a Cortina brake tuner installed on a 6.5, PRS style modular rifle, using factory ammo. His group were twice as big that without, and this no matter the tuning. Just to say he was mad was an understatement. Adding a weight to the end of a barrel has some unforeseen effect unless you know how to make it work. This is not a magic wand.
 
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Janeau said:
Tuner are efficient in 1 inches- short barrel. A tuner is a weight. Shorter the barrel, more weight is needed to make it work.
To make a tuner work, you must first, find the best ammo for you gun. A tuner will not shrink to match level,bad ammo.

A tuner of the proper weight, will remove vertical in a load. A light tuner on a heavy - short barrel might not do anything until weight is added on to it. The Harrel tuner is made to accept screw in weight of different thickness for that purpose.

In .22, Anschutzs barrel are typically .960 in diameter and tuner are used extensively in competition, up to the point, that without it, no chance to win.
Same in Benchrest, nobody will show up at a National match without it, if a shooter want any chance to win anything.

But like anything, sometime it goes fast to find a tune, and other time, it take quite a bit of testing. In my book, a tuner is a competition oriented device, not something to install on every gun as some will like to make you believe.

I seen at the range, a fellow shooter who just got a Cortina brake tuner installed on a 6.5, PRS style modular rifle, using factory ammo. His group were twice as big that without, and this no matter the tuning. Just to say he was mad was an understatement. Adding a weight to the end of a barrel has some unforeseen effect unless you know how to make it work. This is not a magic wand.
Click to expand...

do tuners 'work'? I think this is a perfect example of 'YES'.... is the effect desired? Well, in this case 'no'... which doesn't change the affect the weight had on the rifle.

Internet hype seems to make a tuner some magic tool that miraculously makes crap into diamonds.... as I have said numerous times, a tuner (or attached weight) will have an affect on the tuning of a load/barrel combo if the tuner is heavy enough. EC, in my opinion, isn't as heavy as I want (around 5ozs). How you manipulate that tune can have a positive affect.... or not.... but it will have an AFFECT.

I smile when shooters rave about this and that tuner paying no attention to the units mass.... cause that is really all that matters. A hunk of metal with a female thread isn't exactly high tech... even if it has pretty laser engraving on it.

FYI, the tuna can is around 16oz and MANY shooters with varmint contour barrels are seeing an affect on target (myself included).

So why did the customer want the builder to add that tuner? Was it in hopes that accuracy would improve even more? Given how well the rifle was shooting when it went out the door, it indicates to me that the owner couldn't find an ammo locally that worked (that builder looks to have a decent lot of SK RM but that is not what I would hang my hat on as great ammo)

For that 1.2" truck axle, you are looking at 1 to 2lbs of mass to really affect tuning with a Tuna can about as big as I would care to use. But then, using a barrel that thick is also kind of silly IMHO.

So it seems that less then ideal strategies are being used to build rimfire rifles...but discussed as "good". Sending more inexperienced shooters down paths that may not lead to a positive result. I sure hope the owner has alot of ammo lots to choose from and finds one that works.... and can secure enough for their shooting lifespan.

And unsupported positional shooting is not important in their overall scores.... Who knows, maybe that build is for a junior shooter :)

Jerry
 
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Janeau said:
A tuner of the proper weight, will remove vertical in a load. A light tuner on a heavy - short barrel might not do anything until weight is added on to it. The Harrel tuner is made to accept screw in weight of different thickness for that purpose.

In .22, Anschutzs barrel are typically .960 in diameter and tuner are used extensively in competition, up to the point, that without it, no chance to win.
Same in Benchrest, nobody will show up at a National match without it, if a shooter want any chance to win anything.
Click to expand...

When tuners first became widely used in BR shooting, using extra weights on Harrell and Hoehn tuners was much more common than it is currently. Most BR rifles have barrels that are 24 to 26 inches long and about .850 up to .900 inches in diameter. Heavier barrels are not common.

Commonly in use are standard Harrell tuners without weights. Many shooters report that lightened Harrell tuners of about 4.5 - 5 ounces in weight give good results. (If I recall correctly the standard Harrell weighs just over 8 ounces.)

The standard Anschutz 69cm heavy barrel is about 24mm (about .945") in diameter. The lighter 66cm Anschutz barrel is about 22mm (.866") in diameter. Of these two Anschutz barrels, the lighter one is more responsive to tuners.

With regard to the use of tuners, in serious benchrest competition, virtually all shooters use them. In 3P shooting, they are not as widely used. Sometimes it may appear as if many 3P rifles have tuners, but most of these are barrel extensions/bloop tubes that serve to extend the sight radius.
 
Most extension/bloop tube do now, integrate a tuner on .22 competition gun. They are made to accept the globe sight, which, in his own right, add weight way up front. The Israeli Starik is one used on Olympic level gun, National competition. The Lowley, the same but popular with Australian and NZ shooters. Thats what I have on my BR50 and it work great.

When varying powder charges, you tune your barrel harmonics. At one time, some still do in Benchrest, reloading at the range between relays to adjust their load to the conditions. Now most shooter pre- load and use the tuner to make corrections instead. You must know your gun, load and how to tune very well to do this.

Most people do not need a tuner. Some guys at our club shoot long range competition up to two kilometers and tuners are not allowed. They work out their load ( using premium components) in different conditions to find what work. In my book, that show me that it is not needed for 99% of people.

On a .22, the only thing you can change is ammo ( brand , lot) , a tuner of the proper weight has an effect in removing vertical. You must have a good gun and be a consistent shooter to identify your tune. It’s not a replacement to take the time to find the best lot of .22 ammo for your gun….
Everybody love pictures..:)
4E01296A-2ED0-44D4-B65F-370F7725C57E.jpg
 

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Janeau said:
Most extension/bloop tube do now, integrate a tuner on .22 competition gun. They are made to accept the globe sight, which, in his own right, add weight way up front. The Israeli Starik is one used on Olympic level gun, National competition. The Lowley, the same but popular with Australian and NZ shooters. Thats what I have on my BR50 and it work great.

When varying powder charges, you tune your barrel harmonics. At one time, some still do in Benchrest, reloading at the range between relays to adjust their load to the conditions. Now most shooter pre- load and use the tuner to make corrections instead. You must know your gun, load and how to tune very well to do this.

Most people do not need a tuner. Some guys at our club shoot long range competition up to two kilometers and tuners are not allowed. They work out their load ( using premium components) in different conditions to find what work. In my book, that show me that it is not needed for 99% of people.

On a .22, the only thing you can change is ammo ( brand , lot) , a tuner of the proper weight has an effect in removing vertical. You must have a good gun and be a consistent shooter to identify your tune. It’s not a replacement to take the time to find the best lot of .22 ammo for your gun….
Everybody love pictures..:)
View attachment 627416
Click to expand...

for me in rimfire, I saw a substantial drop in group size for some barrels with some ammo types... ie.. accurate rifle, high quality ammo.. together, shoot like garbage. Add a tuner, dial it in, shoot to the potential of both ammo and rifle. Does not make crap ammo turn into match ammo... doesn't make inaccurate rifles suddenly drive tacks.

As has been said before, I always start the test WITHOUT a tuner and hope the combo works out. If it doesn't, then the tuner comes into play. I have limited lot choices so make the best with what I can get. A tuner only matters when you can't load tune your ammo... ie rimfire.

For centerfire, I tune the ammo to the barrel and have never seen the need nor used a tuner even when shooting across wide ambient conditions. There are definitely load tunes where a tuner might save your bacon ... but that is typically loading to the narrowest of nodes and that has its own set of risks.

rimfire is just managing what you have, to get the most out of it....

Lovely set up by the way.

Jerry
 
Janeau said:
Most extension/bloop tube do now, integrate a tuner on .22 competition gun. They are made to accept the globe sight, which, in his own right, add weight way up front. The Israeli Starik is one used on Olympic level gun, National competition. The Lowley, the same but popular with Australian and NZ shooters. Thats what I have on my BR50 and it work great.

When varying powder charges, you tune your barrel harmonics. At one time, some still do in Benchrest, reloading at the range between relays to adjust their load to the conditions. Now most shooter pre- load and use the tuner to make corrections instead. You must know your gun, load and how to tune very well to do this.

Most people do not need a tuner. Some guys at our club shoot long range competition up to two kilometers and tuners are not allowed. They work out their load ( using premium components) in different conditions to find what work. In my book, that show me that it is not needed for 99% of people.

On a .22, the only thing you can change is ammo ( brand , lot) , a tuner of the proper weight has an effect in removing vertical. You must have a good gun and be a consistent shooter to identify your tune. It’s not a replacement to take the time to find the best lot of .22 ammo for your gun….
Everybody love pictures..:)
Click to expand...

Most barrel/sight extensions do not include a tuner. There are manufacturers who do make them, such as Starik, Beesting, Uptagrafft and Lowey tuner/extensions, but they are the exception, not the rule in ISSF position shooting.




Uptagrafft tuner is shown on bottom in the image below.



Lowey offers products such is those shown below.





While tuner/extensions are availabe, they are not used by the majority of 3P shooters, even at the highest levels. Typically, most 3P shooters use factory equipped rifles which have extensions, but no tuners.








Anschutz, for example, makes extensions as shown below. The first is the sight extension that is included with each 54.30 barreled action. The other is an optional Anschutz barrel extension.




Below are some typical high level 3P competitors with tuner-less rifles.


 
I don’t know when your pictures where taken but this one in Athen 2014:
E7680239-42ED-42F5-B95B-FA074818184D.jpeg
And this one of the US Champion in Munich:
C586F79B-24D9-4E68-AB18-151261614CFF.jpeg

You can see clearly the use of tuners. A top level shooter will not even think to be without it if allowed.
A tuner on a .22 is a big advantage. They work very well.

A tuner is a weight, even when not allowed, the front sight base ( see own long they are) can be slided back and forth to achieve the same effect. Those guy have access to ammo testing lab and when a lot work in their rifle, they got thousand of the same lot. They do not need to adjust their ‘tuner’, most of that shooting is inside or controlled range. So temperature and condition is not a factor.
 

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