Flyers Do they Exist
- Thread starter Longbow
- Start date
Near as I can tell, people define a flyer as any shot in a group they don't like. Few groups, especially those of only three shots can't be magically reduced by ignoring one bullet hole.
Usually 5 shot groups average out to 50% larger than 3 shot groups. If you want to take a guess at how your rifle will shoot 5, it'll likely be about the same as your worst three shot groups, "flyers" and all.
Usually 5 shot groups average out to 50% larger than 3 shot groups. If you want to take a guess at how your rifle will shoot 5, it'll likely be about the same as your worst three shot groups, "flyers" and all.
Have you never had an unexplainable point of impact way out of the rest of the group??
I was having a similar discussion about this with an old friend last week.
There are several things that will cause a ''flyer'', which can't be easily or directly pinpointed.
Back in the day of 4 inch (8cm) groups being normal and acceptable for a hunting rifle, we never really understood the reason why this was OK. It wasn't of course but the only folks that were getting really tight 1 inch groups were those that swaged their own bullets or bought specialty bullets/ammunition.
It wasn't until a very smart individual started to measure jacket thicknesses, electronically by getting a bi refringence reading from a meter, that it became possible to detect bullets that wouldn't go where they were pointed in an acceptable manner. He invented the "juenke Guage" which could detect bullets with inconsistent jacket thickness, which would cause their spiral diameters to open as they rotated before hitting the target. Think of a heavy wet towel in your clothes dryer, with a bunch of socks and shirts and the affect it has on the rotation of the drum.
Inconsistent jacket thicknesses IMHO are accountable for the vast majority of unexplainable flyers.
Today, with even mediocre bullets, flyers aren't nearly as common an occurrence. That doesn't mean they won't happen and there isn't a bullet manufacturer out there that is 100% immune to this issue.
I'm not overly familiar with new equipment but I don't think it's possible/practical for manufacturers to measure jacket thicknesses for every bullet. That being said, it is possible for them to measure selected samples of jackets before they're filled with lead and using a Juenke Gauge, measure selected samples from each lot of finished projectiles.
I used to love picking up those packs of bullets that are supposedly ''seconds'', rejected because of ''blemishes''
Unless I'm really desperate for bullets, I pass those offering by now.
I have never had a bag of those factory bulk seconds that didn't generate a couple of unexplainable flyers. That doesn't mean they aren't accurate enough for hunting at reasonable ranges buttttttttt.
I was having a similar discussion about this with an old friend last week.
There are several things that will cause a ''flyer'', which can't be easily or directly pinpointed.
Back in the day of 4 inch (8cm) groups being normal and acceptable for a hunting rifle, we never really understood the reason why this was OK. It wasn't of course but the only folks that were getting really tight 1 inch groups were those that swaged their own bullets or bought specialty bullets/ammunition.
It wasn't until a very smart individual started to measure jacket thicknesses, electronically by getting a bi refringence reading from a meter, that it became possible to detect bullets that wouldn't go where they were pointed in an acceptable manner. He invented the "juenke Guage" which could detect bullets with inconsistent jacket thickness, which would cause their spiral diameters to open as they rotated before hitting the target. Think of a heavy wet towel in your clothes dryer, with a bunch of socks and shirts and the affect it has on the rotation of the drum.
Inconsistent jacket thicknesses IMHO are accountable for the vast majority of unexplainable flyers.
Today, with even mediocre bullets, flyers aren't nearly as common an occurrence. That doesn't mean they won't happen and there isn't a bullet manufacturer out there that is 100% immune to this issue.
I'm not overly familiar with new equipment but I don't think it's possible/practical for manufacturers to measure jacket thicknesses for every bullet. That being said, it is possible for them to measure selected samples of jackets before they're filled with lead and using a Juenke Gauge, measure selected samples from each lot of finished projectiles.
I used to love picking up those packs of bullets that are supposedly ''seconds'', rejected because of ''blemishes''
Unless I'm really desperate for bullets, I pass those offering by now.
I have never had a bag of those factory bulk seconds that didn't generate a couple of unexplainable flyers. That doesn't mean they aren't accurate enough for hunting at reasonable ranges buttttttttt.
hatman1793
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
When you graduate from buying bulk ammo & just plinking, to buying a quality rifle of known excellence you must buy better ammo & increase your firing distance, preferably 50 yards to start.
Quality ammo in the 22LR game usually runs around C$8.00 a box of 50 then goes past C$30.00.
For example, I zeroed my bolt action 22LR rifle at 50 yards & almost every different type of ammo shot to the zero, or a bit above or a bit below. And produced decent groups.
I recently bought two boxes of Aguila Target Competition, C$14.99 each & two boxes of Eley Sport, C$11.99 each & extensively fired both at 50 & 100 yards. Both couldn’t hold my zero at 50 & completely dropped off the bottom of the target at 100.
Both of these 22LR failed the group test & mostly threw huge flyers.
Quality ammo in the 22LR game usually runs around C$8.00 a box of 50 then goes past C$30.00.
For example, I zeroed my bolt action 22LR rifle at 50 yards & almost every different type of ammo shot to the zero, or a bit above or a bit below. And produced decent groups.
I recently bought two boxes of Aguila Target Competition, C$14.99 each & two boxes of Eley Sport, C$11.99 each & extensively fired both at 50 & 100 yards. Both couldn’t hold my zero at 50 & completely dropped off the bottom of the target at 100.
Both of these 22LR failed the group test & mostly threw huge flyers.
Yes, flyers exist. And when I get them, they're almost always caused by me. - dan
So I think we agree, 3 shots is simply not enough of a sample size. So is the right number 5 or 10 or more to understand our true group size and how often do we need to repeat it. Once we understand it, how much outside of that to be a flyer
That is my feeling also as relates to centerfire cartridges (reloads and/or factory). I would have to clarify that in my previous comment that is what I was referring to. Rimfires can and do produce very obvious "flyers" on occassion that are in my experience caused by the ammo.
I have never shot a 3 round match. After just getting back from shooting the West Indies fullbore championship (with ammo supplied by the host country) Hornady Black box, I can say just about everyone was getting to odd shot that was about 2 MOA out of the group. Things went better after we started weight sorting the ammo.
For rimfire I have had Center-X shoot nice little groups then out of nowhere drop a shot into the 8 ring that look like a wadcutter hole. This would happen 1 or 2 times with each box of 50.
For rimfire I have had Center-X shoot nice little groups then out of nowhere drop a shot into the 8 ring that look like a wadcutter hole. This would happen 1 or 2 times with each box of 50.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Centerfire or rimfire?
Properly loaded match ammo and quality accurate rifle... or just factory ammo in a factory rifle?
Quality of bullet in Centerfire? Design and distance in discussion?
There is a MASSIVE difference.... for flyers to occur
Jerry
Properly loaded match ammo and quality accurate rifle... or just factory ammo in a factory rifle?
Quality of bullet in Centerfire? Design and distance in discussion?
There is a MASSIVE difference.... for flyers to occur
Jerry
Yes, they exist. But you need a good shooter with either good ammo or a good rifle to see them.
I assume you mean wild shots not caused by the shooter.
I was testing my Ruger 9mm carbine yesterday (10 shot groups) and could see that the first shot was 2" high right from where the next 9 shots went. About a 1" group with a high right flyer.
This suggest a gun issue. Given the planned use of the gun, this will not be an issue.
I load develop with 10 shot groups. So many times I have seen spectacular 5 shot groups that become ho-hum after the next 5. For serious testing I use 20 shot groups. Here is a 525 yard test:
I assume you mean wild shots not caused by the shooter.
I was testing my Ruger 9mm carbine yesterday (10 shot groups) and could see that the first shot was 2" high right from where the next 9 shots went. About a 1" group with a high right flyer.
This suggest a gun issue. Given the planned use of the gun, this will not be an issue.
I load develop with 10 shot groups. So many times I have seen spectacular 5 shot groups that become ho-hum after the next 5. For serious testing I use 20 shot groups. Here is a 525 yard test:
They happen, usually shooter error, but they can also be an issue with a load, or even a barrel that is past it's accuracy life. I have noticed more fliers with rimfire loads, and with centerfire barrels that started throwing fliers, after they had a lot of rounds down the barrel.
When it comes to Varmint rifles, their barrels usually have twist rates tailored to a specific bullet diameter/length/profile.
I can give you an example of such a rifle, that I loaded with hand swaged 130 grain, flat base ELD ogive.
The barrel was made by Hart and had a 1-15 twist rate. The Chamber was cut for the 308 Palma Match with a special below SAAMI spec outside neck diameter.
The barrel was a reject from a batch I picked up from Nobby Uno. Not sure why it was rejected, it was never chambered or threaded to mount and after it was profiled for easier carrry in the field, then mounted onto a Remington 700LA receiver and mounted in a McMillan stock, it shot better than I could hold in the field.
The bullets came from the US by a Bench Rest specialist, Randy Robinette. They weren't commonly available because they were specifically intended for hunting Varmints. You would be surprised how many Match shooters don't hunt and don't believe in it.
Anyway, this rifle was a proven shooter and set up specifically for the above mentioned bullets.
I always thought that the very few and far between misses or flyers were my fault. Well, that would have been partially right.
Randy admitted that there were no guarantees about flyers in any of his bullets but the chances of it were extremely small.
The very odd flyers I got with that rifle, happened because the bullets were just barely stabilized, which for accuracy purposes is usually an ideal condition. When the temps dropped to far, the powders I was using at the time, BLC2 and W748 were very temperature intolerant. I just wasn't getting the pressures and resulting velocities to properly stabilize those bullets at -25C temps and lower.
Centerfire, Quality components, good barrel
Ganderite points out he uses 10 or 20 shot groups. At that sample size shots that might have looked like flyers become part of the group. So not actually flyers
