Is excessive Logging , hurting the bear pop in your area

[Spruster]

From what I see the 1000's of acres flattened every year and the disturbance .Logging in the winter has to kill alot of denned up cubs . Bear's , especially the black are taking a kicking . In new logged out areas where there was once numerous bears are now dwindling . Does it matter where , spring comes sooner or maybe not

What have you seen in your region
Does it affect moose / elk and other game too

 

[hors555]

NB (especially public land, which is 50% of the province), couldn't be logged much more intensively than it is, and we seem to have all kinds of bears. Moose doing fairly well, depending on the zone - some are world class hunting and others very few. Deer are mostly gone from crown land, with the exception of pockets here and there. Our deer population goes up and down with the severity of winters, which suggests to me the loss of quality wintering habitat on crown land has an impact. There are other theories, of course.

 

[Rman]

You would probably have to define what you think is excessive logging? Or is all logging excessive? They plant more trees than they cut?
They are cutting fewer trees now in most areas now, than ever, except those that have been burned. Softwood tariffs, mill closures, pulp and paper mill closures, and raw log exports have seen to that.
Bears love a two or three year old logged out area. Moose as well.

R.

 

[Spruster]

You would probably have to define what you think is excessive logging? Or is all logging excessive? They plant more trees than they cut?
They are cutting fewer trees now in most areas now, than ever, except those that have been burned. Softwood tariffs, mill closures, pulp and paper mill closures, and raw log exports have seen to that.
Bears love a two or three year old logged out area.

R.

not from what I see. and to expand
does this logging give predators a new advantage for hunting. Especially wolves . I've see more and more wolf tracks down roads . Gives them easy mobility

 

[Joel]

Moose thrive on clear cuts as long as there is at least a little cover left over for thermal refuge. Generally rules like leaving buffer zones around waterways etc will prpvide that.

A large clearcut will outproduce a normal, unlogged forest when it comes to raising moose population density so long as the roads are blocked and people cannot just go into it and shoot them at will. This was shown very elegantly by Rempel et al. in Ontario in 1997. I'd highly encourage reading that paper.

Lots of moose survival depends on packing on the pounds and taking in calories before winter. They thrive on edge and disturbance (like wildfire burn areas and clear cuts) because the regeneration is very nutritious and easy to eat. That's why that kind of habitat is rated so highly in HSI/HQI models in use in many places. What kills predictive power of the HSI models is high road density.

The presence of moose tracks on roads is a correlational relationship, without being able to show they are actually killing enough prey animals to drop the population. My age is 100% negatively correlated to the value of the Canadian dollar, but I don't think dying will make the value start to rise again

 

[Rman]

not from what I see. and to expand
does this logging give predators a new advantage for hunting

Have to go look... it's the law.
Gives predators the same advantage as a fire area would...except it takes longer for a fire area to grow back.

R.

 

[Joel]

Have to go look... it's the law.
Gives predators the same advantage as a fire area would...except it takes longer for a fire area to grow back.

R.

Pretty much. Both are going to produce more moose faster than untouched bush.

 

[Joel]

. Deer are mostly gone from crown land, with the exception of pockets here and there. Our deer population goes up and down with the severity of winters, which suggests to me the loss of quality wintering habitat on crown land has an impact. There are other theories, of course.

This sounds very likely

 

[Spruster]

Moose thrive on clear cuts as long as there is at least a little cover left over for thermal refuge. Generally rules like leaving buffer zones around waterways etc will prpvide that.

A large clearcut will outproduce a normal, unlogged forest when it comes to raising moose population density so long as the roads are blocked and people cannot just go into it and shoot them at will. This was shown very elegantly by Rempel et al. in Ontario in 1997. I'd highly encourage reading that paper.

ots of moose survival depends on packing on the pounds and taking in calories before winter. They thrive on edge and disturbance (like wildfire burn areas and clear cuts) because the regeneration is very nutritious and easy to eat. That's why that kind of habitat is rated so highly in HSI/HQI models in use in many places. What kills predictive power of the HSI models is high road density.

The presence of moose tracks on roads is a correlational relationship, without being able to show they are actually killing enough prey animals to drop the population. My age is 100% negatively correlated to the value of the Canadian dollar, but I don't think dying will make the value start to rise again

Wrong . Moose do not survive better in these areas because once logged out , the round - up spraying starts. Kill off small shrubs and grass. All they want to start over is spruce trees.. period.. poplar or any leaf trees are destroyed (willows) . BC has been fighting this for decades

 

[Spruster]

Have to go look... it's the law.
Gives predators the same advantage as a fire area would...except it takes longer for a fire area to grow back.

R.

without the roads in winter ..go look ..wolves are enjoying this.They can travel 30miles a day easy ..NO deep snow to fight with

 

[hors555]

Wrong . Moose do not survive better in these areas because once logged out , the round - up spraying starts. Kill off small shrubs and grass. All they want to start over is spruce trees.. period.. poplar or any leaf trees are destroyed (willows) . BC has been fighting this for decades

Go to a sprayed area a couple years after it was sprayed or beforehand if there was a delay between logging and planting/spray...you will see there is way more grub for a moose than in a block of mature woods.

I'm no fan of spraying, but even in areas where spraying occurs there are benefits to moose from converting mature forest to young. Facts.
Edit: just to add, even in jurisdictions where herbicide is used, it is typically not applied to all blocks, and it is usually only applied once after planting to give the seedlings a head start.

Again I'd much prefer natural regeneration (and fewer clear-cuts to begin with), but still see lots of moose in areas where spraying is the norm!

 

[Joel]

Wrong . Moose do not survive better in these areas because once logged out , the round - up spraying starts. Kill off small shrubs and grass. All they want to start over is spruce trees.. period.. poplar or any leaf trees are destroyed (willows) . BC has been fighting this for decades

Not wrong. You haven't mentioned spraying until now. That's something else entirely and I'll admit I never studied it because it isn't happening anywhere i am responsible for.

The rest? True. Logging benefits them.

I might have seen a bit of where moose live.

 

[Rman]

Wrong . Moose do not survive better in these areas because once logged out , the round - up spraying starts. Kill off small shrubs and grass. All they want to start over is spruce trees.. period.. poplar or any leaf trees are destroyed . BC has been fighting this for decades

The application of herbicide is only after the tree planting takes place, and in BC, it sure as hell isn't spruce trees... it's pine and fir. The only reason for it is to give the saplings half a chance against the undergrowth. Once the initial application is down, there may be another, and then that is it. The rest is left to grow, and grow it does.
Joel has it exactly right. You, not so much... BC has been managing this for years. They make the rules. Including the one about planting more trees than are cut.

R.

 

[Spruster]

Go to a sprayed area a couple years after it was sprayed or beforehand if there was a delay between logging and planting/spray...you will see there is way more grub for a moose than in a block of mature woods.

I'm no fan of spraying, but even in areas where spraying occurs there are benefits to moose from converting mature forest to young. Facts.

Wrong ..moose don't eat pine needles ..and the round up kills everything else . The bear cubs get trampled in their den. Moose need cover from predators

 

[Joel]

Go to a sprayed area a couple years after it was sprayed or beforehand if there was a delay between logging and planting/spray...you will see there is way more grub for a moose than in a block of mature woods.

I'm no fan of spraying, but even in areas where spraying occurs there are benefits to moose from converting mature forest to young. Facts.
Edit: just to add, even in jurisdictions where herbicide is used, it is typically not applied to all blocks, and it is usually only applied once after planting to give the seedlings a head start.

Again I'd much prefer natural regeneration (and fewer clear-cuts), but still see lots of moose in areas where spraying is the norm!

Aye...have a VERY hard time imagining a DNR would say "Screw the moose, just spray everywhere you cut". Kind of buggers belief. Or beggars it. Whichever.

 

[Joel]

The application of herbicide is only after the tree planting takes place, and in BC, it sure as hell isn't spruce trees... it's pine and fir. The only reason for it is to give the saplings half a chance against the undergrowth. Once the initial application is down, there may be another, and then that is it. The rest is left to grow, and grow it does.
Joel has it exactly right. You, not so much... BC has been managing this for years. They make the rules. Including the one about planting more trees than are cut.

R.

We may disagree on physics but he knows his moose habitat lol

 

[JIMMY 808]

An old forest is a dead forest.

 

[Joel]

Moose and predator interaction seems to me (not my forte but professionally read those who know more) to be a pretty complicated interaction of many factors. Snow depth. Food availablity. Predator mobility. Cover. Other things.

Many things would have to conspire against them to be effectively defenseless from predators just because of roads and cuts. Starvation leads to lethargy leads to not being able to flee leads to worse mobility in deep snow...which may be because deep snow covers food...and round we go.

IF they are well fed to begin with their odds of making it through the winter go up. Including in the presence of predators. And the rules protecting certain areas from being cut (the above example was around waterways) do provide cover.

 

[Spruster]

The application of herbicide is only after the tree planting takes place, and in BC, it sure as hell isn't spruce trees... it's pine and fir. The only reason for it is to give the saplings half a chance against the undergrowth. Once the initial application is down, there may be another, and then that is it. The rest is left to grow, and grow it does.
Joel has it exactly right. You, not so much... BC has been managing this for years. They make the rules. Including the one about planting more trees than are cut.

R.

nooo..the spraying is done as soon as there is new growth and it's targeted to leaves , not needles. Pine, fir whatever .. And moose don't eat needles .Some blocks are not replanted for years and years ..It's all money , not enviro and animals

 

[hors555]

Moose and predator interaction seems to me (not my forte but professionally read those who know more) to be a pretty complicated interaction of many factors. Snow depth. Food availablity. Predator mobility. Cover. Other things.

Many things would have to conspire against them to be effectively defenseless from predators just because of roads and cuts. Starvation leads to lethargy leads to not being able to flee leads to worse mobility in deep snow...which may be because deep snow covers food...and round we go.

IF they are well fed to begin with their odds of making it through the winter go up. Including in the presence of predators. And the rules protecting certain areas from being cut (the above example was around waterways) do provide cover.

Well said - that's about as concisely as one could explain how complicated the dynamics at play could be.