Need schooling on paper patch

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Licensed to kill

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Going to be working uo a load for my .500BPE and looking for a suitable bullet. From what I gather, these tend to shoot better with paper patch that naked so that is what I want to try. I slugged the barrels and, as near as I can tell, the bore is .501 on both barrels. groove to groove appears to be around .516. It is difficult to get a true reading (unless there is a way that I am not aware of) because it has an odd number of grooves so there are no two directly across from one another the gate an accurate reading with the micrometer. I found a mold that looks like the right bullet weight but is .513. It has grease grooves. Would a bullet this size work?. is .013 too much to send through a sizer to get it to bore diameter then patch back to groove diameter?? or is that not how it is done??.
 
What paper are you using? Onion skin is the standard but a lot of folks use computer paper, or whatever they have on hand. I use both, depending on the situation. I try to patch to groove dia. Measure 4 thicknesses of what ever paper you choose to use. 2 wraps = 4 thicknesses. add that to your bullet dia. and see where you are. I will also size my dry, patched bullets to iron out the wrinkles, if any. I will also lube the patched bullet with a minute amount of sizing lube applied to my finger and rubbed on the patched bullet. I seldom tear a patch. If your brass is fire formed to your chamber, and not re-sized, you should be able to seat the bullet with your fingers. If you've flared the neck, you can apply a small amount of taper crimp using the sizing die. Remove the de-priming stem from the die and adjust it so that it only removes the flare, and Bob's yer uncle!
I'm presently patching for my .577 Snider. I'm using a cast Minnie bullet weighing 500 grs and .577 dia. I powder coated twice to bring the dia. up to .584" or so then wrapped it with 2 wraps of computer paper for a finished dia. of .595". Cases are fire formed and not re-sized.
 
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The brass that I have came with the rifle and is loaded with jacketed woodleigh bullets and a 45 gr of Accurate 5744. I am going to pull the bullets and replace the powder. As for the paper, I have not chosen what I am going to use, whatever weight I need to accomplish the goal once I understand what the bullet diameter should be (relative to bore diameter) and how much I need to get to the bottom of the rifling. Id there an accurate/proper way to measure bore and groove diameters with odd number of grooves??.
 
Usually, rifling grooves are .004" deep, so a .30 cal bore would have a .308 groove dia. A .450 bore would have a .458" groove dia. For a .500 cal I would expect the bore to be .500" and the groove to be .508" but this is a supposition on my part! You can measure a pulled bullet, it should be close to groove dia. Maybe slug the bore ???
 
I did slug the bore but it has 7 lands and grooves so being an odd number, there are no 2 directly across from one another to get an accurate measurement. According to what I have been able to find, most of these guns came with .500 bore, .512 groove but I can't verify that the way I am doing it due to the odd number.
 
Licensed to kill said:
The brass that I have came with the rifle and is loaded with jacketed woodleigh bullets and a 45 gr of Accurate 5744. I am going to pull the bullets and replace the powder. As for the paper, I have not chosen what I am going to use, whatever weight I need to accomplish the goal once I understand what the bullet diameter should be (relative to bore diameter) and how much I need to get to the bottom of the rifling. Id there an accurate/proper way to measure bore and groove diameters with odd number of grooves??.
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Yes, there is an old-school "proper" way - needs an anvil with a precise angle to hold two of the lands, then measure from base of the jig to the top of a third land. If you can find them, I think Rifle Magazine had a number of articles written by Ross Seyfried about paper patching, casting and trying to get double rifle modern loads to match to old school black powder "regulation" in double rifles - I am sure in one of them I had read how to measure odd number rifling grooves for bullet sizing.

If you have 7 rifling grooves on your barrel slug - assume that No. 1 is going to be on TOP DEAD CENTRE - then sketch it out and use fairly standard geometry to work out the angle needed for the anvil to contact centre of lands No. 3 and 4 (?)
 
Licensed to kill said:
I did slug the bore but it has 7 lands and grooves so being an odd number, there are no 2 directly across from one another to get an accurate measurement. According to what I have been able to find, most of these guns came with .500 bore, .512 groove but I can't verify that the way I am doing it due to the odd number.
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Can wrap the bullet with stiff paper or a strip of aluminum can and measure diameter then subtract twice the thickness of the wrap.
Personal I roll the bullet in the calipers to find the absolute widest spot across the corners and it comes pretty close. I also like to use as big a bullet as will chamber well which is often a few thousandths bigger than just going by groove diameter.

Paul Mathews wrote a book about paper patching but I can't say if it would address your situation. Might be worth looking into.
 
oldrodder said:
What paper are you using? .....
I'm presently patching for my .577 Snider. I'm using a cast Minnie bullet weighing 500 grs and .577 dia. I powder coated twice to bring the dia. up to .584" or so then wrapped it with 2 wraps of computer paper for a finished dia. of .595". Cases are fire formed and not re-sized.
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What kind of accuracy is this giving you?
 
vagrantviking said:
Can wrap the bullet with stiff paper or a strip of aluminum can and measure diameter then subtract twice the thickness of the wrap.
Personal I roll the bullet in the calipers to find the absolute widest spot across the corners and it comes pretty close. I also like to use as big a bullet as will chamber well which is often a few thousandths bigger than just going by groove diameter.

Paul Mathews wrote a book about paper patching but I can't say if it would address your situation. Might be worth looking into.
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I have his book. It's called "The Paper Jacket" He also wrote another called "The Practical Paper Patched Bullet". I haven't been able to find that one yet. When it comes to measuring odd groove bullets, I use the method described by VagrantViking. It works well enough to get one started. I have to say though, for all the paper patching I've done in .30, 375, 40, 458 and 50 and now, 58 cals, I've always had better luck with greasers.
 
Potashminer said:
If you can find them, I think Rifle Magazine had a number of articles written by Ross Seyfried about paper patching, casting and trying to get double rifle modern loads to match to old school black powder "regulation" in double rifles - I am sure in one of them I had read how to measure odd number rifling grooves for bullet sizing.
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I was told about the Oct 2002 issue of Handloader magazine where Ross Seyfreid has a article on loading for this exact rifle. I ordered a copy from the publisher and have read the article a few times. In it he talks about paper patching a bit, that is where I read to use a bore diameter bullet wrapped with thick enough paper to bring it to groove diameter. It has some really good info but leaves out a few details. It did, bowler, connive me to go with 4198 rather than black. I wanted to use black because...I like black powder and I HAVE over 50 pounds but it sounds like 4198 is a better choice so I bought an 8lb jug. I would like to know if a .513 bullet in 20-1 lead/tin will size through a .500 sizer or is that too much reduction?.
 
I'm a fan of IMR 4198 for all my straight wall cartridges. Sizing down 13 thou will surely put a strain on your sizer handle!!.....and likely deform the bullet!! If you have the NOE sizing system, you can do it in increments.
 
Depending what is available at stores where you are - Lee also makes a "push through" sizer system - just screws into a reloading press like a die would. I think you would use tumble lube Liquid Lee Alox or similar to lube that bullet to go through. Was a time when I tried to make conical bullets for a .50 cal muzzle loader - had bought a Lee Mold and Sizing push through die - I think made for the S&W 500 handgun - was touted on Internet as solution to "cast your own" conicals of that weight (440 grain??) for muzzle loader. Looking on Amazon.ca - might have been 0.510" diameter, and I don't think the new product comes with that Liquid Alox any more.
 
I just checked NOE, he has inserts from .500" to .517" in .001" increments. I have the system, consists of a die body, caliber specific push rod, inner sleeve and inserts. Initial purchase requires you to buy the die body, inner sleeve then caliber specific push rod and inserts. It's the most versatile sizing system available to date.
 
oldrodder said:
I just checked NOE, he has inserts from .500" to .517" in .001" increments. I have the system, consists of a die body, caliber specific push rod, inner sleeve and inserts. Initial purchase requires you to buy the die body, inner sleeve then caliber specific push rod and inserts. It's the most versatile sizing system available to date.
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Interesting. Thanks. Maybe a call to NOE would be in order and I can discuss what it is I have and what it is I (think) want.
 
Soooooo, the post about NOE 's adjustable sizer got me thinking, I looked and they are open today so I called to discuss my needs. I had looked at their .512 molds but did not see/recognize that they have a .501 size category. Turns out they had a mold that LOOKS like just what I want so I ordered it. Flat Sided, plain base, .502 and 325gr. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/sho...502-325-fn-bz2/htc502-325-fn-bz2-2-cavity-pb/
 
Licensed to kill said:
Soooooo, the post about NOE 's adjustable sizer got me thinking, I looked and they are open today so I called to discuss my needs. I had looked at their .512 molds but did not see/recognize that they have a .501 size category. Turns out they had a mold that LOOKS like just what I want so I ordered it. Flat Sided, plain base, .502 and 325gr. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/sho...502-325-fn-bz2/htc502-325-fn-bz2-2-cavity-pb/
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So, the mold you ordered is a HTC (High Temp Coating) style but you could patch it up to your desired diam. Maybe powder coat first?
 
oldrodder said:
So, the mold you ordered is a HTC (High Temp Coating) style but you could patch it up to your desired diam. Maybe powder coat first?
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To be honest, I did not know what HTC meant and forgot to ask. I could powder coat them but not sure I understand what then point would be. If they drop out @.502 I will need to size them down to .501 or maybe .500, THEN paper patch back to groove diameter..unless there is something I am missing. This is new to me.
 
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