Bull elk / rifle / cartridge / bullet

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Spruster

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So many threads and discussions on the the right one . I've heard/seen the 257 , 6.5 and others as "great " for the job . Then ask the same question and the big boys come out . Like nothing under a 338
Where is the magic point ... .277 .284 .308
If the 257 and 6.5 work that good using the shot placement scenario ???
Why would any one own anything bigger ? really why have a 30 cal ?
Maybe type of bullets make up for little calibers ? I don't know
Just asking all you culling , hunters and guides
 
Shot placement is key. For example I witnessed one of my family members shoot a 7 foot black bear with a 243 100gr corelokt at 150 yards and the bear dropped on the spot. I was expecting to follow up on it but no need. It was a perfect broad side double lung shot. I myself like to have 7mm or bigger for stuff like big bears/moose/elk especially if your only presented with a quartering shot and that's the only opportunity you have then i want the ability to penetrate deep.
 
A lot of smaller calibers are capable of punching above their weight class, due in part to their characteristics such as extremely good sectional density or by construction. The Swedes had this figured out a long time ago with the 6.5x55. Long heavy for caliber round nose bullets killed moose with ease. Fast forward to modern times and we have bonded and mono metal bullets. Both excellent at weight retention and penetration. Getting back to the question, can you take a bull elk with a 243, 6.5 whatever. Yes. Is it the most appropriate, maybe not. A 7mm anything is probably the best middle ground group of cartridges, capable for nearly everything. Only you can decide if your preferred caliber is enough gun. I prefer to match guns/caliber to game and distances. I have a 30/30, 7mm08, and a 35 Whelen. For shooting from 25 to about 300 yards, I’m covered for everything I wish to hunt where I wish to hunt it.
 
In his book "Ask the Elk Guides" author J.Y.Jones asked a half dozen renowned elk guides what caliber he or she would like to see their clients step off the plane with. Most of them preferred something in the .338 range, while others were happy seeing them arrive with a more moderate cartridge they were comfortable (and confident) shooting.
Of course shot placement is key to any successful hunt, but your typical bull elk is no slouch. Myself, I have shot more elk with the .338 than any of the others. My first three bulls were taken with a peep-sighted .348 win. The next four or five with a .338, and my last mountain bull was called into range to be dispatched with another peep-sighted lever gun, this time in .405 win.
As I moved on to the flat bush country, I have taken three cows under my landowner tag, all while focussing on filling my white tail buck. Consequently, I was only packing a 30-06 for these, and it performed admirably, with shots all under 300 yards.
My last bull was taken with the historic .375 HH. Nuff said!
Of all the elk taken, only one had to be chased and given a follow up. That was with a factory "silver tip" round out of the .348. At about 60 yards, the bullet completey fell apart into shrapnel, and just barely penetrated deep enough into the animal to damage one lung. The young bull managed to go 4-500 yards further into the bush before he bedded down. I was able to dispatch him in his bed at 40 yards.
All three of the cows, and the last mountain bull, were all taken using reloads with Hornady bullets. I dont recall that any of the recovered Hornady bullets were "picturesque" or really impressive with weight retention, but none of the elk seemed to notice. None of them required a second shot either.
I recall a buddy telling me about a bullet manufacturing rep who was accosted at a convention by an unhappy customer. The man ranted about "performance" and "weight retention" while displaying some bullets recovered from game kills. The bullet rep finally asked the disgruntled hunter "at what point in animal's death did the bullets fail to perform?" Classic.
I have used many "high end" bullets, and have always been a huge fan of the Nosler partition, particularly in my .338. Having said that, the best bullet performance and weight retention I have ever had on elk, was with my last bull. I had just bought a new Sako Bavarian in .375 but sadly this was during the middle of covid and bullet selection was non-existent. The only bullets in any quantity I could find were Sierra Game kings. I wanted enough to do lots of range practice and have enough left to use this gun for the rest of the season as well. The Game King's performance was the most perfect mushroom ever achieved, and 98% weight retention, with the bullet piled up on the off-side shoulder.
Shot placement is always a factor, so despite advertising and hype, start there. Use whatever caliber you are comfortable with, but I could not in good conscious recommend anything under a .30 cal. Put in lots of range time. Know your gun and get confident with it.
Dont take marginal shots. Sometimes poor bullet performance is just the result of taking shots that just shouldn't have been taken. There's too many shows selling fancy and expensive rifles to people that think every elk seen is attainable under 1000 yards. Practice out to 200 and 300 yards. Then try shooting off-hand or in feild positions at the same distance. If you're not happy with the grouping doing that, think of your chances out further. Try adding in a shot of adrenalin when that big bull shows up and see what happens! (Disclaimer; although I quote a lot of one shot kills, that "one-shot" wasn't always the first one!! Adrenalin can put to shame a lot of your pre-season practice)
I've hunted elk for just over thirty years. Sometimes it falls into place and you have a good run of meat in the freezer. There's also been a lot of dry years where I had to hang my head and shop at the meat counter! Scouting, boots on the ground, and know your rifle.
Having only one gun to choose from would make life really boring. I highly recommend the 30-06 as an all-around cartridge that is available at the majority of stores that sell ammo. Because for over twenty years I called in elk during the bugling season in a high-density grizzly area, I always fealt more comfortable with a larger gun. Usually I would be packing a .338 win or .358 norma. Thankfully I never had cause to need the extra fire power, but that wasn't for lack of encounters either.
 
browning525 said:
In his book "Ask the Elk Guides" author J.Y.Jones asked a half dozen renowned elk guides what caliber he or she would like to see their clients step off the plane with. Most of them preferred something in the .338 range, while others were happy seeing them arrive with a more moderate cartridge they were comfortable (and confident) shooting.
Of course shot placement is key to any successful hunt, but your typical bull elk is no slouch. Myself, I have shot more elk with the .338 than any of the others. My first three bulls were taken with a peep-sighted .348 win. The next four or five with a .338, and my last mountain bull was called into range to be dispatched with another peep-sighted lever gun, this time in .405 win.
As I moved on to the flat bush country, I have taken three cows under my landowner tag, all while focussing on filling my white tail buck. Consequently, I was only packing a 30-06 for these, and it performed admirably, with shots all under 300 yards.
My last bull was taken with the historic .375 HH. Nuff said!
Of all the elk taken, only one had to be chased and given a follow up. That was with a factory "silver tip" round out of the .348. At about 60 yards, the bullet completey fell apart into shrapnel, and just barely penetrated deep enough into the animal to damage one lung. The young bull managed to go 4-500 yards further into the bush before he bedded down. I was able to dispatch him in his bed at 40 yards.
All three of the cows, and the last mountain bull, were all taken using reloads with Hornady bullets. I dont recall that any of the recovered Hornady bullets were "picturesque" or really impressive with weight retention, but none of the elk seemed to notice. None of them required a second shot either.
I recall a buddy telling me about a bullet manufacturing rep who was accosted at a convention by an unhappy customer. The man ranted about "performance" and "weight retention" while displaying some bullets recovered from game kills. The bullet rep finally asked the disgruntled hunter "at what point in animal's death did the bullets fail to perform?" Classic.
I have used many "high end" bullets, and have always been a huge fan of the Nosler partition, particularly in my .338. Having said that, the best bullet performance and weight retention I have ever had on elk, was with my last bull. I had just bought a new Sako Bavarian in .375 but sadly this was during the middle of covid and bullet selection was non-existent. The only bullets in any quantity I could find were Sierra Game kings. I wanted enough to do lots of range practice and have enough left to use this gun for the rest of the season as well. The Game King's performance was the most perfect mushroom ever achieved, and 98% weight retention, with the bullet piled up on the off-side shoulder.
Shot placement is always a factor, so despite advertising and hype, start there. Use whatever caliber you are comfortable with, but I could not in good conscious recommend anything under a .30 cal. Put in lots of range time. Know your gun and get confident with it.
Dont take marginal shots. Sometimes poor bullet performance is just the result of taking shots that just shouldn't have been taken. There's too many shows selling fancy and expensive rifles to people that think every elk seen is attainable under 1000 yards. Practice out to 200 and 300 yards. Then try shooting off-hand or in feild positions at the same distance. If you're not happy with the grouping doing that, think of your chances out further. Try adding in a shot of adrenalin when that big bull shows up and see what happens! (Disclaimer; although I quote a lot of one shot kills, that "one-shot" wasn't always the first one!! Adrenalin can put to shame a lot of your pre-season practice)
I've hunted elk for just over thirty years. Sometimes it falls into place and you have a good run of meat in the freezer. There's also been a lot of dry years where I had to hang my head and shop at the meat counter! Scouting, boots on the ground, and know your rifle.
Having only one gun to choose from would make life really boring. I highly recommend the 30-06 as an all-around cartridge that is available at the majority of stores that sell ammo. Because for over twenty years I called in elk during the bugling season in a high-density grizzly area, I always fealt more comfortable with a larger gun. Usually I would be packing a .338 win or .358 norma. Thankfully I never had cause to need the extra fire power, but that wasn't for lack of encounters either.
Click to expand...

Great response write up ..now just one question and what I was asking ...
If the 257/264 kills .
What and how does the 30-06 / 308 cal do it Better ? why want one with more recoil and blast
how does it kill better ?
Dead is dead ... right
The same placement with both
Not disagreeing , just looking for the reasoning.. very few wanna try and answer that
Why a 30-06 over a 257
 
Yes Joel ,
its gonna be difficult and intimidating for most (you ) to reply
not seeing one and well, therefore never killing one
so the elk would be hard for you to comment , I understand from you
What makes a 257 or .264 a elk rifle ? If its that good ?
Then all 30-06 owners should sell off
Even the cull african guys shooting 3500 ft/ 257 don't know what gives
Question again ... how does a 257/264 kill as good as 338 win mag ?
when hit in the spot !!!!
or does it and where does it lack
 
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Spruster said:
Great response write up ..now just one question and what I was asking ...
If the 257/264 kills .
What and how does the 30-06 / 308 cal do it Better ? why want one with more recoil and blast
how does it kill better ?
Dead is dead ... right
The same placement with both
Not disagreeing , just looking for the reasoning.. very few wanna try and answer that
Why a 30-06 over a 257
Click to expand...

Browning 525 provides some great insight.
Myself, I have taken elk with the following:
20 w/10 different cartridges; (20% with non magnums)
270 Wby
7mm Rem Mag
6.5x55
35 Whelen
338 Win Mag (2)
7MM STW (5)
358 Win (3)
300 WSM (3)
376 Steyr
Crossbow
280 Rem
And my shot distances have ranged from 5 yards to 475 yards, and that longer distance was an under estimation of distance! (And the only two beyond 260 yards, and most less than 200 yards - bulls and cows, quiet to full on rutting and bugling)

And to answer the questions asked:
The larger diameter bullets of the 30 cal provide greater frontal area and heavier bullets with more mass and momentum that impart greater impa t energy on elk that must be experienced first hand to appreciate (something that paper numbers just do not illustrate as effectively).
Bullets of quality construction and high sectional density (regardless of diameter) definitely penetrate better than others, as recommended by African PH's and other guides that have more experience than the average hunter, by witnessing what work in the field on a wide variety of game, taken with a wide variety of calibers, cartridges and bullets, under a wide variety of circumstances (range, species, animal behaviour and states of awareness/alertness/activity/adrenaline, shot presentation and placement, etc.) Many have minimums and/or recommendations for a reason; they know what works and what causes issues they would prefer to mitigate or eliminate. Then there is the requirement to have enough velocity to reliably drive that bullet into the vitals, provide sufficient expansion to cause the appropriate amount of tissue damage, hemorraghing, and/or shock to provide quick, clean kills. And if heavy, dense bone is encountered enroute to those vitals, the bullet must have enough energy to penetrate that bone and still make it into the vitals for that same performance. On animals like elk, which have the densest bone of any animal in North America, this means more energy, bullet mass and sectional density. A study conducted years ago found that the minimum bullet that could reliably penetrate the heaviest part of the elk shoulder boone and make it into the vitals with enough energy and expansion to provide that quick, clean kill was the 250gr bullet fired from a 338 Win Mag. And elk have a tenacity of life that I have not witnessed in any other big game taken in 37 years of hunting big game.
Then there are bigger, heavy, slow moving bullets from calibers and cartridges that have plenty of mass and momentum to reliably break big bone, and penetrate deeply with sufficient expansion to provide enough shock and tissue damage to reliably kill elk beyond what the paper ballistics would suggest, such as the 356/358 Winchesters, 348 Winchester, 444 Marlin, 45-70, etc. Big holes provide lots of blood letting!
Can you kill elk, with smaller calibers, in cartridges with less velocity and retained energy at the animal? Yes
Can you do it reliably under every circumstance, every time? No
Yes, dead is dead...Yes. And again, No. Did the animal die cleanly and quickly? Did it linger in its death throes? And require extra finishing shots? Was it a long, tedious tracking job, where the animal suffered needlessly for hours, or days?
And yes there are hunters that have killed numerous elk with 243 Winchesters, but this is the exception, performed by very experienced hunters, with exceptional rifle skills and patience and wisdom. The question for those that do not fall into this category is;
Are you willing to pass up every shot opportunity that is less than ideal in order to be able to say that killed your elk with a lightweight, small caliber bullet?
And are you 100% confident that you can place that bullet into the vitals every single time without encountering that heavy shoulder bone?
If not, use enough gun! The 308/30-06 with good quality bullets is a better choice for many hunters. For me, I like even more diameter and bullet weight than the 257/264. And more velocity than most provide. (Yes, I took a grazing, unalarmed cow elk at 370 yards with the 6.5x55...an unexpected opportunity that took more shots than I would have liked and I learned first hand the it wasn't enough, for this species at that range and shot presentation.)
Elk are majestic animals and deserve our respect and consideration in ensuring that we choose the right tool for the job.
 
After close to 3 dozen Elk kills, I am of the opinion that "Elk" chamberings start at the 7mms
This is not to say that lighter chamberings will not kill them......they will, but the majestic Elk
tends to be tenacious of life, and it is good to pack enough gun when hunting them.

I have shot 11 elk with the 30-06 and 180 Partitions, but I do like my 308 Norma Mag just
a bit better. I have taken Elk with the 7x57, the 7mm Rem Mag, the 270 Winchester,
the 6.5x55AI and the 264 WM. The last 3 were shot with the 8mm Rem Mag or the 325 WSM.

I will stick my neck out and suggest that the 8mm Rem Mag is an Ideal Elk chambering.
Loaded with the 200 or 220 A-Frames, it has plenty of "thump" to anchor an Elk cleanly.

Up to this point, I have had the privilege of not having to track any elk more than 80
meters or so. Most were down within half that distance. EE
 
With bullets up to 160 gr, loaded to modern pressures in a modern rifle, the 6.5 x 55 SI is hard to beat for game up to and including Moose and Elk.

That being said, I have become quite enamored with the newest addition to the collection; a 9.3 x 62. Having put 100 rounds or so through this old girl, were I younger and a moose or elk hunt upcoming, this would be my rifle of choice. Just over 7 lbs with the scope, and loads of power, for even a quartering shot on a large animal with a 286 gr; simple round nose Jacketed soft points are perfect; no need for expensive solids that are too costly to practice with. Rarely do game present broadside, on level, open ground. Recoil is a bit stiff, but managable (according to Chuck Hawkes table, about 75-80% more than .30-06; but it does not feel like it). Light rifle, good recoil pad, loads of power and accurate; what more can a guy ask for.
 
Spruster said:
Yes Joel ,
its gonna be difficult and intimidating for most (you ) to reply
not seeing one and well, therefore never killing one
so the elk would be hard for you to comment , I understand from you
What makes a 257 or .264 a elk rifle ? If its that good ?
Then all 30-06 owners should sell off
Even the cull african guys shooting 3500 ft/ 257 don't know what gives
Question again ... how does a 257/264 kill as good as 338 win mag ?
when hit in the spot !!!!
or does it and where does it lack
Click to expand...

LOL.

Because everyone would suddenly sell their rifle and all buy the same one, for any reason....

Doubt anyone ever said "kills better". A bigger bullet with more energy of same construction will kill better...the difference may just be trivial is all.

And I'm not that convinced you've killed that many elk either lol. But if you wanna think a pistol bullets worth of greater energy and a mm bigger diameter is gonna kill things decisively better than good bullets at adequate speed, you go right on ahead :)
 
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My first elk taken was 150 meter or so off hand shot - I hit it badly - that bullet took out the rear of the near side lung and tore across the liver - was an easy three hours tracking that one before I finished it with shot to back of head. That was with Federal Premium 165 SPBT from 308 Win. Our son took his first spiker with a single shot with that same rifle perhaps 30 years later - 165 grain Speer HotCor hand loads - his kill shot was perhaps 100 meters as the spiker crossed a small river. I went back in next years with a .338 Win Mag - 225 grain bullets - Hornady, I think, but could have been 225 grain Federal factory Premium ammo. A cow was hit in head about 5 meters from muzzle - it dropped right there - did not even wiggle. 5x6 Bull hit solidly in chest at about 150 meters - it ran a good 100 meters through the bush before piling up, was dead where I found it. My Dad had taken a smallish 6x6 and a medium 6x6 with his 30-06 and probably 180 grain factory of some sort - is hard to tell with him - often was 165 grain and 180 grain shells mixed up in magazine or in his pocket - not sure that he could tell you, for sure, which weight was the kill shot - did not seem to matter much with that old P17 of his. I was not at the scene for his first one, but his second one had two bullet holes right through - perhaps 3 inches apart through and through the rib cage - we fished that carcass out of same small river that my son shot his in, some years later.

My partner and I had decided to not hunt one day that it was raining - a couple guys had seen our quads on a trailer and stopped at our campsite and asked if we would recover an elk in the bush - yes we would - so we left campsite following them. In the bush, along a cut line, was a guy who had "shot" the elk - had fired once with his 30-30 and then watched the animal stumble down the cut line, away from him, and cross into the bush. My partner found a dollap of blood about 25 meters from the cutline - as if that animal had coughed up some blood there - was the only sign we ever found of it - despite several hours walking the bush in the rain. I do recall the shooter asking out loud what was he supposed to do - "shoot it in the ass?" I do not know where it started, but from my Dad to me, and then from me to our son - no matter the rifle, keep firing at an elk until you see feet in the air. In my opinion, elk are WAY harder to kill and stop quickly with through the chest shot, than deer are - which appears to be some people's only experience at killing things.
 
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Sounds a lot like moose hunting IMO...except perhaps they are slower to leave the scene.

Not a spine/brain shot? Not expecting anything to drop when its hit no matter what the caliber. With deer mentioned, if they can run after catching a 30-06 through the lungs, why wouldn't a bigger animal? Pound for pound I've always found em very tough. I mean comparitively, what kind of rifle would you need to hit an elk with to have the same ratio of bullet diameter/weight/energy for that size of animal? A 1 inch cal delivering 7500 ft/lbs?

I'm with you on shoot til the job is done though. Beats tracking/losing. There's a lot of meat on those big animals.

On the 9.3x62...its cool that there's such an option out there, but didn't see any difference vs a 30-06 in how it puts them down, except perhaps less meat loss :)
 
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