What's the deal?...

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RaysBoi

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With airplane peanuts.

Unrelated but I was shooting my 12g and testing out a 6" extension I'd just added to my gun. Was shooting challenger target slus and getting 10" groups at 50 with a cylinder choke. Decided to try throwing my mod in and the groups cut in half. I've seen enough posts regarding ppl getting better accuracy with a constriction that it begs the question, why do mfg always sell "security" models with a fixed cylinder? You'd think gun makers are aware that some slugs benefit from a choke and I'm sure it'd be the same with buck(never tied but come on). Anyone have thoughts on this?
 
RaysBoi said:
With airplane peanuts.

Unrelated but I was shooting my 12g and testing out a 6" extension I'd just added to my gun. Was shooting challenger target slus and getting 10" groups at 50 with a cylinder choke. Decided to try throwing my mod in and the groups cut in half. I've seen enough posts regarding ppl getting better accuracy with a constriction that it begs the question, why do mfg always sell "security" models with a fixed cylinder? You'd think gun makers are aware that some slugs benefit from a choke and I'm sure it'd be the same with buck(never tied but come on). Anyone have thoughts on this?
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Because a 10" group at 50 yards is plenty tight enough when you're shooting people in a hallway that is only 6 yards long.

Also, its cheaper to make the bore all one diameter. If you can make it cheaper for the customer, it will sell better. Plus, some slugs shoot better out of chokes, but its one of those things that is so variable - both from gun to gun, and from slug to slug - that I'm sure SOMEONE would be making the exact opposite remark as you are - "why are they NOT cylinder bore?", especially because when using buck or birdshot in a defensive situation you are usually more concerned with getting MORE spread, not less, due to typical engagement ranges being so short.

Mossberg used to make 590s with fixed IC or Mod chokes (forget which, wanna say Mod though) but looking at their current offerings on their website they all appear to have cylinder bore.


Personally I have more issues with the bead sights on a lot of security barrels - a small bead on a gun without a rib means you can't actually use the bead like a front sight, because it makes you cant the gun skyward to see the bead over the receiver. I solved this issue with a cheap clip-on fiber optic sight that raises things up a bit, making them more in line with the top of the receiver, but it would be nice if manufacturers did something about this rather than me having to find an aftermarket solution.
 
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That's true regarding the bead. I hadn't even thought of that. Was just something that came to my mind. I still have to wonder about the chokes though. I realize it's cheaper but having internal threads for chokes would make those guns more ammo versatile (choke it up for the best performance with ammo of your choosing). I guess a threaded barrel would have less metal and be weaker... is that the case once a choke is installed? Idk.
 
RaysBoi said:
That's true regarding the bead. I hadn't even thought of that. Was just something that came to my mind. I still have to wonder about the chokes though. I realize it's cheaper but having internal threads for chokes would make those guns more ammo versatile (choke it up for the best performance with ammo of your choosing). I guess a threaded barrel would have less metal and be weaker... is that the case once a choke is installed? Idk.
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I don't think strength is a factor - practically every bird barrel comes with screw in chokes these days, and a lot of those guns are seeing a steady diet of 3" steel loads, which is going to be harder on the gun than any lead slug or lead buckshot you're going to use.


I would think it comes down to cost - cheap sells, and if you need to increase the price to add screw in chokes then I bet most people buying a shotgun for home defense is going to go with the cheaper cylinder bore one because the advantage to screw in chokes from a home defense perspective is lacking - how often do people defending their home have to take shots at 50+yds? I would think it is a tiny tiny minority of situations where anything beyond 10-20yds is required, and if you live somewhere where 50yds might be required (say, large rural property with outbuildings to defend), then you probably have a rifle for that sort of situation.

Plus, then you've got the fact that you're making the system more complicated - if you've got screw in chokes then it just adds one more thing to think about.
 
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Certainly cheaper but the security models are usually on the upper end of cost(added features) so I could see them being able to add a little on top and still making it appealing. Say you're remington, you can advertise the added accuracy potential and point out that the other guy(moss or win) doesn't have said feature and it could get you KILLED or your family BRUTALLY BEATEN by roving gangs of libs just like Haiti!!plus with the added benefit that I can buy a nicely made,short shotty that I can screw a turkey choke into and go shoot grouse in the noggin. For now the turks are the only game in town.
 
It's because of cost and most people don't know any better. Most people won't even shoot a bunch of slugs or buckshot, they will do it a few times then either not shoot the gun or use target loads.

Most people that are buying an inexpensive Mossberg or Remington or a clone are buying it more because they are cheap, cool and fun.

People that are actually going to use their shotgun will be buying higher grade defense shotguns that come with choke tubes and/or modifying their shotgun.
 
99.9 % of the guns are toys and not actually used for defence porpoise so it really doesn’t matter what choke the gun has or doesn’t have when was the last time you defended yourself with a shotgun
 
Suther said:
Because a 10" group at 50 yards is plenty tight enough when you're shooting people in a hallway that is only 6 yards long.

Also, its cheaper to make the bore all one diameter. If you can make it cheaper for the customer, it will sell better. Plus, some slugs shoot better out of chokes, but its one of those things that is so variable - both from gun to gun, and from slug to slug - that I'm sure SOMEONE would be making the exact opposite remark as you are - "why are they NOT cylinder bore?", especially because when using buck or birdshot in a defensive situation you are usually more concerned with getting MORE spread, not less, due to typical engagement ranges being so short.

Mossberg used to make 590s with fixed IC or Mod chokes (forget which, wanna say Mod though) but looking at their current offerings on their website they all appear to have cylinder bore.


Personally I have more issues with the bead sights on a lot of security barrels - a small bead on a gun without a rib means you can't actually use the bead like a front sight, because it makes you cant the gun skyward to see the bead over the receiver. I solved this issue with a cheap clip-on fiber optic sight that raises things up a bit, making them more in line with the top of the receiver, but it would be nice if manufacturers did something about this rather than me having to find an aftermarket solution.
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Every experienced shotgunner knows that if your looking at the bead then your not looking at the target and that will get you killed in a real self defence situation. You don't aim a shotgun at a moving target so forget about the bead, focus on the target and point the gun at it the way your supposed to.
 
Suther said:
Because a 10" group at 50 yards is plenty tight enough when you're shooting people in a hallway that is only 6 yards long.

Also, its cheaper to make the bore all one diameter. If you can make it cheaper for the customer, it will sell better. Plus, some slugs shoot better out of chokes, but its one of those things that is so variable - both from gun to gun, and from slug to slug - that I'm sure SOMEONE would be making the exact opposite remark as you are - "why are they NOT cylinder bore?", especially because when using buck or birdshot in a defensive situation you are usually more concerned with getting MORE spread, not less, due to typical engagement ranges being so short.

Mossberg used to make 590s with fixed IC or Mod chokes (forget which, wanna say Mod though) but looking at their current offerings on their website they all appear to have cylinder bore.


Personally I have more issues with the bead sights on a lot of security barrels - a small bead on a gun without a rib means you can't actually use the bead like a front sight, because it makes you cant the gun skyward to see the bead over the receiver. I solved this issue with a cheap clip-on fiber optic sight that raises things up a bit, making them more in line with the top of the receiver, but it would be nice if manufacturers did something about this rather than me having to find an aftermarket solution.
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One thing that I have noticed about those stick on beads, that being that the people that use them at skeet and sporting clays are not the ones shooting the top scores. The people using those beads to aim at moving targets, are staring at the beads, instead of the target, which is a good way to miss. If you want to aim using sights , then you might as well use a rifle instead of a shotgun. Shotguns are made to be pointed at moving targets, and to be honest, the majority of people buying the cheap security type shotguns, don't shoot moving targets with them, and when they do, they don't do well at it.
 
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Well I've been looking into it a bit more and I think you guys are right that nobody has a use for em. Seems there's been a few over the years but I can't imagine they sell well because if they did companies would be making em still. I know I'd buy one in a heartbeat but rem/moss isn't about to start producing them just to sell me one. I think the best course of action is to buy a youth model with a 20ish" barrel and source a full length butt stock.

Regarding the bead sans rib, never really bothered me(I've got a 14" canuck) because if I'm shooting the odd clay I'll just watch the clay and if I'm shooting targets I like a 6 o'clock hold. Same with grouse/rabbits, I like to shoot high, any bird with pellets in the edible meat, should of just let him live.
 
RaysBoi said:
Well I've been looking into it a bit more and I think you guys are right that nobody has a use for em. Seems there's been a few over the years but I can't imagine they sell well because if they did companies would be making em still. I know I'd buy one in a heartbeat but rem/moss isn't about to start producing them just to sell me one. I think the best course of action is to buy a youth model with a 20ish" barrel and source a full length butt stock.

Regarding the bead sans rib, never really bothered me(I've got a 14" canuck) because if I'm shooting the odd clay I'll just watch the clay and if I'm shooting targets I like a 6 o'clock hold. Same with grouse/rabbits, I like to shoot high, any bird with pellets in the edible meat, should of just let him live.
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Other than turkey I shoot all my birds on the wing. Rarely ever do I find pellets in the meat. #7.5 or 6 lead for upland. #2 or BB steel for waterfowl
 
RaysBoi said:
With airplane peanuts.

Unrelated but I was shooting my 12g and testing out a 6" extension I'd just added to my gun. Was shooting challenger target slus and getting 10" groups at 50 with a cylinder choke. Decided to try throwing my mod in and the groups cut in half. I've seen enough posts regarding ppl getting better accuracy with a constriction that it begs the question, why do mfg always sell "security" models with a fixed cylinder? You'd think gun makers are aware that some slugs benefit from a choke and I'm sure it'd be the same with buck(never tied but come on). Anyone have thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

Because a "security" shotgun isn't made for hunting.
 
Quote Originally Posted by Canuck65 View Post: Because a "security" shotgun isn't made for hunting.

Even so. Why limit yourself to a less accurate gun?

Exactly - unless you plan to rob banks or join a swat team, why buy one on the first place. lol. (That's just the grumpy old man talking now).
 
Falconflyer said:
Every experienced shotgunner knows that if your looking at the bead then your not looking at the target and that will get you killed in a real self defence situation. You don't aim a shotgun at a moving target so forget about the bead, focus on the target and point the gun at it the way your supposed to.
Click to expand...

I dunno about you, but I've never seen a criminal fly through the air like a clay or duck (actually I did once, but thats because he ran into traffic and got hit by a car). I am well aware of how one uses a shotgun for clay shooting and hunting, but that is a completely different task than home defense. Plus, I bet there is a massive number of people who have a shotgun for home defense who do not partake in clay sports nor hunt, and thus do not have the knowledge base/skillset to point the gun as you suggest.

And considering the OP was specifically talking about using slugs at longer distances, I think it is perfectly relevant. You're not gonna just point your shotgun to shoot groups at 50yds with slugs, the vast majority of people are gonna try and aim down the bead/rib/whatever it has.
 
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But if you really are well aware of how one uses a shotgun then you shouldn't be spreading nonsense because shooting clay targets isn't any different than home defence shooting, if your eye is drawn to the front sight then you have missed the target plain and simple... don't for a minute tell people that a bright front sight is a good thing because it isn't!
And you are correct in saying that most people are not aware of how one should use a shotgun but that isn't necessarily their fault so you shouldn't be advising them on things that both you and they don't understand.
 
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