Bear rifle. Will 44 mag be enough?

[Jdiep]

Heyo,

Does anyone have any experience with a short lever backcountry just in case rifle?

I was thinking 44 mag, short barrel lever (I could go 357 )
Some recommend 45-70 which is probably the best. I just haven't shot one before so I don't know how it handles, wanted to stick with something I'm more familiar with. Plus I don't reload.

I also have a short barrel 12ga. If anyone has any recommendations for ammo that would be awesome.

Just looking to see what kind of experiences people have encountered
Thanks

 

[6MT]

I had a conversation about bear defense last weekend with a retired conservation officer. My question was about a 12ga shotgun. I asked what would be the best defense for a bear. He told me that to stop a bear, you need to break bone. What he carried was a 12ga with slugs only. When I asked why no buck shot, he replied about the breaking bone thing. He said that buck shot has its place and is useful in bear defense, but if you want to stop a bear, he preferred slugs.

He also told me about a bear that killed a hiker in Alaska. Him and some police officers were hunting this bear. When they finally killed it and did the autopsy, they found many .45 caliber bullets in it. But the slug was what stopped it because it broke bone. He said a .44/.45 caliber won't break bone and is pretty useless unless you are pumping it full of them and get lucky. And when time matters, emptying a magazine won't solve a pressure situation. A 45-70, I never asked him about.

EDIT:

To the people who have PM'd me asking who it was. His name is Andy and he's the president of the Edson Gun Club.

 

[Jdiep]

I had a conversation about bear defense last weekend with a retired conservation officer. My question was about a 12ga shotgun. I asked what would be the best defense for a bear. He told me that to stop a bear, you need to break bone. What he carried was a 12ga with slugs only. When I asked why no buck shot, he replied about the breaking bone thing. He said that buck shot has its place and is useful in bear defense, but if you want to stop a bear, he preferred slugs.

He also told me about a bear that killed a hiker in Alaska. Him and some police officers were hunting this bear. When they finally killed it and did the autopsy, they found many .45 caliber bullets in it. But the slug was what stopped it because it broke bone. He said a .44/.45 caliber won't break bone and is pretty useless unless you are pumping it full of them and get lucky. And when time matters, emptying a magazine won't solve a pressure situation. A 45-70, I never asked him about.

Great info! Thanks. I'll make sure I'll have a bunch of slugs in mine!

 

[Claven2]

.45 was likely acp if it was Alaska. I think a .45-70 would be about equivalent to a slug with its additional velocity.

44 mag out of a rifle is no slouch up close either.

That said, there is a reason most Alaskan guide guns are usually things like .30-06 bolt guns or .45-70 lever rifles.

 

[nowarningshot]

My 44 mag carbine is very fun to shoot. Almost no recoil, would be fine for a camp/defense gun. Would not use it for hunting, maybe whitetails at treestand distance. Limited power and range.

Of the three; 45-70, 44carbine, and 12 ga slug gun. My choice would be the 12ga, as a stopping choice. Other purposes are a different conversation.

Did bear defense move to Wednesday?

 

[Potashminer]

I had a conversation about bear defense last weekend with a retired conservation officer. My question was about a 12ga shotgun. I asked what would be the best defense for a bear. He told me that to stop a bear, you need to break bone. What he carried was a 12ga with slugs only. When I asked why no buck shot, he replied about the breaking bone thing. He said that buck shot has its place and is useful in bear defense, but if you want to stop a bear, he preferred slugs.

He also told me about a bear that killed a hiker in Alaska. Him and some police officers were hunting this bear. When they finally killed it and did the autopsy, they found many .45 caliber bullets in it. But the slug was what stopped it because it broke bone. He said a .44/.45 caliber won't break bone and is pretty useless unless you are pumping it full of them and get lucky. And when time matters, emptying a magazine won't solve a pressure situation. A 45-70, I never asked him about.

Similar story from my youngest brother - some years ago, he was RCMP stationed in Thompson, Manitoba - multiple times called out due to "problem" bear in town - would pull over and wait for DNR to show up - DNR would pass along a few 12 gauge slugs - experience had shown them that the RCMP issue buckshot was not nearly as effective as a slug, when in a tight spot. Is no doubt in my mind that some higher up RCMP "desk jockey" in Ottawa had decided that slugs penetrated too much for officers to be able to use - so was only buckshot available to them in the field - made it "safer" for bystanders, or whatever. However, that ignores the issue, in your face, that you want to STOP that thing right where it is - and that might not be the same as "killing" it.

 

[DANCESWITHEMPTIES]

Here's an article from Rambo himself LOL! Far from an expert, I agree with his assertion that a reliable semi auto is a better choice over a pump shotgun in such a stressful situation for most people. With that said, I think I'd go with a browning BAR in .338 win mag & open sights (ghost ring on the rear/ High rez. on the front). I'd practice like crazy with it & see if I could handle the repetitive recoil and still make decent, fast shots out to no further than 75 yards. Anyhow here's the article:

https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/rifle-vs-shotgun-bear-defense/490740#replay

 

[chasseur]

It depends on if you can shoot and run at the same time so get yourself a good pair of sneakers as well. Lol
What you don t want is to be in a situation where the bear dies shortly after killing you and that’s the rub there are many calibers that can kill a large bear but you want to choose one that gives you a better chance of you not being killed in the process.In an unexpected bear attack you may not have the time or the thought process to put the bullet exactly where you want it to go and a mad/wounded bear is going even more resentful of your presence

 

[Suther]

.45 was likely acp if it was Alaska. I think a .45-70 would be about equivalent to a slug with its additional velocity.

44 mag out of a rifle is no slouch up close either.

That said, there is a reason most Alaskan guide guns are usually things like .30-06 bolt guns or .45-70 lever rifles.

I suspect you are correct with the 45 being ACP. A 45-70 will spit bullets of similar weights to a 12ga slug at higher velocities. With the smaller frontal area I would expect BETTER penetration from the 45-70 assuming similar bullet construction. A 45-70 with a soft lead bullet wouldn't be a good choice, but nor would a 12ga with soft lead slugs designed for deer hunting.

Buckshot has two major problems: Lack of energy per pellet, and lack of penetration. Because they are spherical they are not very heavy - like 54gr per pellet, and 33 caliber. For comparison, 9mm parabellum is typically 115-150gr, and 35 caliber, and only an idiot would reach for a 9mm as their first choice. Sure, you get 9 pellets per shot, but by the time the bear dies from such superficial wounds you're going to be half-digested.


OP I carry a 12ga with Federal TruBall Deep Penetrator slugs. As the name implies, they are designed to penetrate.

 

[Jdiep]

Here's an article from Rambo himself LOL! Far from an expert, I agree with his assertion that a reliable semi auto is a better choice over a pump shotgun in such a stressful situation for most people. With that said, I think I'd go with a browning BAR in .338 win mag & open sights (ghost ring on the rear/ High rez. on the front). I'd practice like crazy with it & see if I could handle the repetitive recoil and still make decent, fast shots out to no further than 75 yards. Anyhow here's the article:

https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/rifle-vs-shotgun-bear-defense/490740#replay

Great article to share! Thank you

 

[Eagleye]

While my experience with the mighty Grizzly is limited to a couple of scary encounters.
[One that ended with a dead bear] I have had a lot of exposure to the antics of the
Black Bear. I agree wholeheartedly with the author of that article in post #7. Beware
of any bear that does not leave posthaste.

For my personal use, I prefer a rifle from the 30-06 up, loaded with a true premium
hunting bullet [Partition, A-Frame, TTSX, etc, etc] Highly frangible bullets are NOT a
good choice. The anatomy of even a Blackie is quite solid. Dave.

 

[Jay]

Yea I'm picking up a 44 mag, wasn't sure if that was a bit undersized, I don't reload so no to the 45-70. Was looking for a short barrel 44 mag lever too!

My 44Mag is lighter & has a 16" barrel, my 45-70 is heavier & has a 12.5" barrel with a Spearhead Machine 4 baffle radical brake.

The 45-70 is definitely more horsepower, but 44Mag is no slouch at the muzzle either (from a rifle)... Have a look...

 

[Jay]

I went and took a couple pics & weighed my 44 Mag & 45-70...

The 45-70 with a 12.5" barrel is a Chiappa Wildlands, weighing in at 9lbs 4.5oz and the 44 Mag is a 16" barrelled Taylors & Co branded Chiappa weighing in at 7lbs 8.5oz, so it's nearly 2 lbs lighter! There's also the cartridge capacity difference, the 45-70 holds 4 rounds in total and the 44 Mag holds 7 rounds in total...

They both have the same light/mount & Sig Sauer Romeo5 2moa red dot on them which has shake awake. The flashlight, even at 3100 lumens does not wash out the red dot, which is kind of important lol... Oh, and the leather sleeves hold spare rounds as well as giving you a bit higher cheek weld for the red dot, they are from Wild Wild Dill...

 

[Lodi]

He told me that to stop a bear, you need to break bone.

Running hounds (on black bear) the .44 Mag in a handgun was the preferred choice. Distances were relatively close, kill shots desired but breaking them down was a very very close second choice, rapidly arrived at. Especially on the ground.

 

[pounder]

You don't have to kill the bear you need to stop it , if it can't move it can't hurt you. Then you kill it. As said before you need to break big bones. for that you need power and quality ammo.

 

[boxhitch]

Heyo,

Does anyone have any experience with a short lever backcountry just in case rifle?

I was thinking 44 mag, short barrel lever (I could go 357 )
Some recommend 45-70 which is probably the best. I just haven't shot one before so I don't know how it handles, wanted to stick with something I'm more familiar with. Plus I don't reload.

I also have a short barrel 12ga. If anyone has any recommendations for ammo that would be awesome.

Just looking to see what kind of experiences people have encountered
Thanks

99% of the battle is the ability to stand your ground and get off good shots, one noise maker or another will do

 

[Butcherbill]

.44 mag will kill a black bear if you can hit your target and you are using good ammo, you want to break bone and penetrate. If it was all I had I’d use it, I’d rather have a 12g with a good hard cast slug.

If you end up having to actually shoot a bear it’s going to be within slug range, shooting it is going to be my last resort so it’s going to be 15-20m.

 

[MRP]

None of the above works if you haven't practiced enough to hold it together under pressure. I pack a .44 ranch hand a fair bit.

My buckshot/ slug test was using 5 gallon metal oil pails filled with water at 50feet. Buckshot made 6 or 7 holes straight through, nothing impressive happened. Slug on the other hand blew the lid and bottom off and split the the seem open down the side. Same thing shooting 4 liter paint cans filled with water and the lids on tight. Nothing eviscerates em faster, lids go 30+ feet in the air.

 

[MiG25]

I've got a article around here where the Author used the 44 Mag on Brown Bear, he may have been the first one to do so, he drilled the bullets and topped them with a bronze bolt.

 

[westcoaster]

Heyo,

Does anyone have any experience with a short lever backcountry just in case rifle?

I was thinking 44 mag, short barrel lever (I could go 357 )
Some recommend 45-70 which is probably the best. I just haven't shot one before so I don't know how it handles, wanted to stick with something I'm more familiar with. Plus I don't reload.

I also have a short barrel 12ga. If anyone has any recommendations for ammo that would be awesome.

Just looking to see what kind of experiences people have encountered
Thanks

All bears are different, some died easy some die hard. I was standing next to a guy with one of those semi auto Marlins in 44mag. He put 8 or 10 rounds (can't recall the mag cap but he emptied it) in it's chest before it stopped. It skidded to a stop about 4 feet from our feet. I shot one with my 338win mag at about 100 yards. He started coming for me with a broken shoulder and a broken rear leg. I had to put two more in him before he stopped at about 25 yards. The last bear I shot was a smallish black bear that walked into my cottage. He had been hanging around so I had my 4570 handy and he died quietly with one round in the boiler room.

From these and many other dead bears I have a few observations that I'll share.

Breaking bones will slow them down but may not stop them. However it will buy you time - so your call.
Putting a hole in their heart, lungs, or brain will kill them...but in the case of heart and lungs it could still take a minute or so. Something about the oxygen levels in their blood they can run on for 30 to 60 seconds without any blood circulating.
If they are alert or pissed off they will be harder to kill.
If you catch them unaware they will generally (but not always) die easier.
I would trust a 44mag or - better - a 4570 over a shotgun due to energy and penetration. I don't buy that a 12 gauge slug will reliably break bones on a bear.
The only cartridge I have used that put bears down instantly, every time, was a 416 Rigby.