Glad to see your faith in the late Dave Thomlinson was strong. When the NFA, yes......Dave himself, was going to take the issue to court I would say it has more than a snowballs chance in hell. I assume you don't think that he or the NFA are incompetent lawyers, as they have fought MANY a battle for us.
Why are pump guns under 660mm suddenly legal?
- Thread starter Armedsask
- Start date
Glad to see your faith in the late Dave Thomlinson was strong. When the NFA, yes......Dave himself, was going to take the issue to court I would say it has more than a snowballs chance in hell. I assume you don't think that he or the NFA are incompetent lawyers, as they have fought MANY a battle for us.
troutseeker
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Prince George, BC
This has nothing to do with faith in the late Mr. Tomlinson. In my opinion this is a lost battle, the rules are already outlined and they will not be changed. The NFA could have the sharpest legal minds in the world, but the law is already written... Interpretation of the law is what some people are arguing about, unfortunately there is no room for interpretation. The minimum length is established, wishing upon a star will not make that change.
Hey, as I've said before, I wish I could legally carrry the pistol gripped 8.5" Dlask shotgun. But then again, I can't break the law.
Troutseeker
Laws are always interpreted. The RCMP/CFC is constantly interpreting the law and regulations. And the letter of the law sometimes seems irrelevant. For example, the law clearly states that pistols designed or adapted to use .32 calibre ammunition are prohibited. That's it, point blank prohibited, class 12(6). Pistols that accept 7.65mm - .32 auto ammuntion are prohibited, class 12(6). But pistols that accept 7.65mm - .32 Long (French service) ammunition are restricted, and not prohibited, because .32 Long is not deemed to be a .32 calibre cartridge - even though a M1935 pistol will accept and fire .32 auto cartridges, and the bullet and cartridge case diameters are essentially the same.
Personnally, I would be hesitant about being seen in public with one of these shortguns, in the absence of a blanket, comprehensive, attributable document from the RCMP/CFC.
Personnally, I would be hesitant about being seen in public with one of these shortguns, in the absence of a blanket, comprehensive, attributable document from the RCMP/CFC.
OK, I will try and clarify the situation as it currently stands. The issue has nothing to do with anything posted above.
1) The current issue with Dlask, et al, is that the FRT lab considers, in it's opinion, all pump shotguns with barrels less than 16" AND with a pistol grip, to be handguns, and thus restricted. They feel that by adding a PG you are modifying it with the intention of firing it with one hand, thus per legislation it is a handgun, in their opinion. You tell me whether or not your 12g SG is intend to be fired with one hand, because this is the crux of the matter, and the point that will be fought in court, if it ever goes.
2) The CFC, and the FRT lab have both stated to me that the addition of a pistol grip does not constitute "otherwise". But this is not the issue (see #1).
The head FRT lab tech stated to me that he is using the US-law rifle length of 16" as his guide.
1) The current issue with Dlask, et al, is that the FRT lab considers, in it's opinion, all pump shotguns with barrels less than 16" AND with a pistol grip, to be handguns, and thus restricted. They feel that by adding a PG you are modifying it with the intention of firing it with one hand, thus per legislation it is a handgun, in their opinion. You tell me whether or not your 12g SG is intend to be fired with one hand, because this is the crux of the matter, and the point that will be fought in court, if it ever goes.
2) The CFC, and the FRT lab have both stated to me that the addition of a pistol grip does not constitute "otherwise". But this is not the issue (see #1).
The head FRT lab tech stated to me that he is using the US-law rifle length of 16" as his guide.
Last edited:
Rusty Shackleford
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bradford, Ontario
Should be pretty easy to argue. Take the 80 year old judge to the range, hand him a 16" pistol grip shotgun loaded with Magnum Slugs, and if he can even hold it one handed, let him see what happens when he pulls the trigger.
Why would anyone , take the barrel length law from another country to make a ruling. Using this logic there must be a better law in some other country that we can counter with. Finland makes it damn near compulsory to have a silencer on your hunting rifle( health and safety of your hearing), I don't see them using that countries laws as a guide for Canada.
- Location
- Kumankissmyass, BC
These guys need to spend less time in the lab and more time at the range shooting 16 inch barrel, pistol grip SGs with 3 inch slugs with hand..I d even pay to watch
Should be pretty easy to argue. Take the 80 year old judge to the range, hand him a 16" pistol grip shotgun loaded with Magnum Slugs, and if he can even hold it one handed, let him see what happens when he pulls the trigger.
Historically the RCMP has been somewhat underhanded when they get to interpret these laws. There was a time when they were using lightweight alloy pellets in 495fps pellet guns to get the velocity over 500fps so they would be considered firearms......it wasn't until CSSA fought to have joules added to the definition that this was straightened out.
They would likely take some reduced recoil #9 shot shells and fire them with one hand and claim it's a handgun that can easily be fired with one hand.
There are TC pistols chambered in just about every rifle cartridge available, so recoil really does not add into the pistol equation......
I keep hearing about this court case...
-When is it?
-Where is it?
-Who is named in the case?
These answers should be a matter of public record no?
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
i emailed dlask a while ago asking status updates, no reply
That makes no sense whatsoever. What does the States have to with it? Not to mention the fact that the rule is 18" down south when it applies to shotguns. So if he's going to arbitrarily apply a foreign countries laws illogically shouldn't it be the right one?
I just registered my grizzly. After it was all done and done I asked her to read me any noted associated with this gun, here is her direct quote from their computer...
"Combining a barrel of less than 16 inches and a receiver of less than 8 inches with a piston grip will render it restricted."
I kinda played dumb and asked what that meant, she said, "even though it came with the gun, don't use it."
nothing new, but I don't think Dlask is fooling anyone
"Combining a barrel of less than 16 inches and a receiver of less than 8 inches with a piston grip will render it restricted."
I kinda played dumb and asked what that meant, she said, "even though it came with the gun, don't use it."
nothing new, but I don't think Dlask is fooling anyone
darkshadow
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- OH Ontario, OH NO!
Did she say what section of the LAW that quote came from?
Regardless of what our interpretation of the law is, right now it is at the discretion of a CO, RCMP or whoever to confiscate it and hold it until you can prove to them that it is a legal firearm with the PG installed and frankly other than the registration certificate I have nothing else to substantiate its legal status. Cops dont care if there is case law pending, they leave it up to the courts to decide. Here is a previous post from me on the same topic...
Yes you can carry your shotgun with PG installed, however dont be surprised if it doesnt return home with you while on an outing if its seen by the wrong person. I welcome something concrete to legitimize the PG configuration as a legal non-restricted firearm, as the reason I bought my 12.5" Grizzly was to install the supplied Pistol Grip since and carry it in the external scabbard on my day pack when out and about day trippinging in the bush, fishing etc, especially now that I have a 3 yr old son who accompanies me. Unfortunately for now it will be wearing a shoulder stock. Btw that "30 day rule" would mean you were in court arguing your case before a judge.
Yes you can carry your shotgun with PG installed, however dont be surprised if it doesnt return home with you while on an outing if its seen by the wrong person. I welcome something concrete to legitimize the PG configuration as a legal non-restricted firearm, as the reason I bought my 12.5" Grizzly was to install the supplied Pistol Grip since and carry it in the external scabbard on my day pack when out and about day trippinging in the bush, fishing etc, especially now that I have a 3 yr old son who accompanies me. Unfortunately for now it will be wearing a shoulder stock. Btw that "30 day rule" would mean you were in court arguing your case before a judge.
Last edited:
Cops will confiscate any firearm if you hang around in public with it. You can try it in your street to see how long it takes your next door to call police.
I don't see any problem to go with a shotgun in bear country. Long or short.
That's common sense.
All right I presumed we were going to be realistc and responsible about things and I think this is why people get angry discussing this topic. In no way was I inferring public display in a shopping mall or a playground or whatever. If you are going to quote me that was not the context in which it was written. More realistically the chances of actually having a problem are remote and come down to a roadside check during hunting season or some yahoo seeing a pistol grip poking out of your pack, you get the idea (I hope!). Now let your common sense prevail, all I am doing is presenting a first hand account with an actual real to life RCPM member that has a direct impact on this topic, not armch chair speculation of "what ifs" and "I see no problem with..." two totaly different worlds. Its your choice, your arguement will fall on deaf ears beyond this forum, as soon as you leave your driveway you are in public.
Gentlemen. We need these references or at least Mark from Questar to comment on how we should defend/justify ourselves as I asked in post #45
