Savage SMLE No. 4 two grove accuracy?
- Thread starter Lebel
- Start date
Well, first off the Savage No4 isn't a SMLE.
As far as accuracy goes, that depends on how close the bore diameter is to median spec.
I have a No4 with a two groove bbl, Longbranch, that shoots select handloads consistently under two inches at 100 yards.
If your rifle's bore is close to median spec and you develop a handload, utilizing neck sized only cases, fireformed in that rifle, it may even shoot better than mine.
As far as accuracy goes, that depends on how close the bore diameter is to median spec.
I have a No4 with a two groove bbl, Longbranch, that shoots select handloads consistently under two inches at 100 yards.
If your rifle's bore is close to median spec and you develop a handload, utilizing neck sized only cases, fireformed in that rifle, it may even shoot better than mine.
I have a similiar rifle , it will consistently shoot 2.5 inch groups at one hundred meters using issue sights . Like yours , it will shoot better with selected handloads , one of which uses a Nosler Partition .308 180 gr . I borrowed the load from an article that John Barnsness used in a Handloader article on Lee Enfields and a 303 Brit chambered Ruger No 1 some time back . Shockingly accurate ..... and the Moose don't like it very much .
- Location
- Western Manitoba
The rifle, when built, could likely dependably hit a 10" pie plate at 200 yards. If the bore is cared for, and you select ammo that it likes, probably still can do that, or better. With the iron sights. I think I read that minimum to pass for release to military - for WWII No. 4 - was 1" wide group by 1.5" high - 5 standard military rounds at 33 yards (100 feet). So, without fussing too much about details, roughly 6" wide by 9" high at 200 yards for 5 rounds. My uncle told me they shot at 12" wide targets, in WWII Canadian army training, at 600 yards, and were expected to hit them. Maybe he was "pulling my leg", but he has been pushing up grass for several decades, so I can no longer challenge him on that...
You can read on Internet that the fabled "T" sniper rifles, done up by Holland and Holland, had to put 5 out of 6 rounds into 10" at 400 yards - so about 2.5 MOA - was minimum to be released to military, so no doubt some would be better than that - but none could do worse. That was with the 3x scope they were equipped with.
You can read on Internet that the fabled "T" sniper rifles, done up by Holland and Holland, had to put 5 out of 6 rounds into 10" at 400 yards - so about 2.5 MOA - was minimum to be released to military, so no doubt some would be better than that - but none could do worse. That was with the 3x scope they were equipped with.
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- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
I have a sporter LB no.4 with a 2 groove barrel that will shoot 1”-1.5” five shot groups with commercial hunting ammo at 100m, that is if I do my part. It’s got a scope mounted and I’m not shooting irons with it.
Savage 2 groove here in full dress with tight bedding. I don't know group size, but the 200 yard gong at the range is a 12 inch and it will do 10 for 10 with my 180grn handloads. Probably a 6 to 8 inch group. But it ain't exactly easy to see at that distance depending on light and weed height.. Good enough for government work id say.
I've shot a lot of game with a sporterized No5 JC which shoots 2.5 - 3MOA. All shots were under 100 yds.
The most accurate LE I've shot was a sporterized No4 owned by a friend. It was a MOA shooter with handloads, even with an atrocious trigger pull. I corrected the trigger pull, but my friend wanted back the way it was.
Military tests showed that there was no practical difference in accuracy between a 2 groove and 5 groove barrel. Same with the 2 groove vs 4 groove in the M1903 Springfield.
The most accurate LE I've shot was a sporterized No4 owned by a friend. It was a MOA shooter with handloads, even with an atrocious trigger pull. I corrected the trigger pull, but my friend wanted back the way it was.
Military tests showed that there was no practical difference in accuracy between a 2 groove and 5 groove barrel. Same with the 2 groove vs 4 groove in the M1903 Springfield.
I've shot a lot of game with a sporterized No5 JC which shoots 2.5 - 3MOA. All shots were under 100 yds.
The most accurate LE I've shot was a sporterized No4 owned by a friend. It was a MOA shooter with handloads, even with an atrocious trigger pull. I corrected the trigger pull, but my friend wanted back the way it was.
Military tests showed that there was no practical difference in accuracy between a 2 groove and 5 groove barrel. Same with the 2 groove vs 4 groove in the M1903 Springfield.
I've owned a lot of No4 and No1 Lee Enfields as well as a few Springfields with both barrel types . The two grooves will shoot as well as the four or five groove rifles . Bedding and bore condition are a far more important factor IMHO .
I enjoy reading and commenting on some of the older posts that ask great questions. From a shooter's perspective the 2 grooves seemed to perform alright out to 300 metres but past that the groups start to open up. My observations are also that 2-groove barrels suffer from copper fouling issues. I plan on doing an eval of muzzle velocity compared between a '42 LB 2-Groove, '50 LB 5-Groove and eventually a '58 6-Groove. My theory is that 2-groove projectiles are moving slower. Or at least sufficiently slow enough where projectiles go subsonic sooner and are subject to cavitation. Have you ever heard a tumbling bullet hit a four foot frame? I enjoyed working in the butts but Mk8Z 175gr tumblers generally made a mess of things. The shooters were doing everything right but their 2-groove wasn't helping them.
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Friend of mine was asked to put a scope on an old 2 groove no.4. He took it to his camp to sight it in, shot great. Then he set up 7 beer bottles at 200 yards. Broke 7 for 7 with factory loads. Buddy that owned the rifle said, " that's pretty good, isn't it?" My friend replied he had a 257 Weatherby that he paid $2000 for that won't do that reliably.
Make a bedding with epoxy in the buttstock area, screw it tight. Start there. Any enfield rifle can be accurate if the barrel is in good condition.
Listen to that guy :https://www.youtube.com/@EnfieldAccurizing
Or use a LB 4T...
Listen to that guy :https://www.youtube.com/@EnfieldAccurizing
Or use a LB 4T...
2 groove bbls in new condition were tested by the Brits and us Canadians, and were found to have no appreciable difference to standard issue 5-groove barrels, which is why they were adopted in the first place.
For a shooter, the single most important factor is forestock bedding, starting with the fit of the forestock draws. When 2 guns with nice bores shoot differently, that is the first thing I check.
For a shooter, the single most important factor is forestock bedding, starting with the fit of the forestock draws. When 2 guns with nice bores shoot differently, that is the first thing I check.
I've owned two all numbers matching original Savage #4's with the two groove barrels. With store bought Winchester ammo they would consistently put rounds into about a 5" circle at 100yds off a solid bench with a top-line rest and bags. Definitely not what I would call accurate. I've owned five additional Enfields and I wouldn't say any of them were good shooters. I have a Finn Mosin 39 that shoots about 1.3 MOA with iron sights and my old eyes. I've often wondered what it could do with a scope on it. My Swedes are all far superior to the Enfields. The most accurate millsurps I own are all Swiss K31's, by a LONG shot! Fantastic two stage triggers. With GP11 ammo I can shoot about 1.1 - 1.2 MOA using the Swiss Products diopter sights on my best groups. I put a Swiss mount and a 4X12 Luopold scope on one of my K31s. Nothing short of insane! With GP11 it will shoot 0.7-0.9MOA if conditions are right and I haven't had more than one coffee. For pure fun I mounted my T36 Weaver rimfire benchrest scope on one of my K31's. Consistent 3 shot groups of about 0.7 inches at 100yds using GP11. I understand the romanticism of owning and shooting Enfields but I'll go Swiss every time if I want to enjoy an accurate rifle.
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Have a 2 groove Maltby that fell into my lap recently, not the prettiest looking bore but it shoots decent now that bedding has been addressed.
Factory S&B 150gr sp, 9 rounds @100m with the iron sights.
Some handloads improved it, Blc-2 and campro’s gave me 2” @ 100m with the irons.
Factory S&B 150gr sp, 9 rounds @100m with the iron sights.
Some handloads improved it, Blc-2 and campro’s gave me 2” @ 100m with the irons.
One of these days I am going to find how good my Longbranch 2 groove shoots. I want to find a Longbranch receiver to put it on. Only pieces I am missing is the forearm and receiver. Anyone I asked said they shoot well. I’ll likely take my Longbranch sporter apart and use that receiver which was the plan when I bought it.
