Max Load for .223Rem with Berger 80.5

iceman106

iceman106

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This is my first summer with my new .223Rem- .223Wylde chamber, 22" 1-7.5" twist.
Trying out Berger 80.5 BTHP. All loaded with Starline 5.56NATO casings and Ginex SR primers, set for 2.455" COAL.

Only official data I found that I can compare with my test results is with 8208XBR -
Pierced primer @ MV 2650fps, Berger manual says max for 24" barrel is 2718 (AR mag length) so I'd say for 2" shorter barrel it checks out. Yet it still cratered primers on 1gr lesser loads.

Since it's 223Rem, I'd like faster MV. So I'm trying out two more powders:

For BL-(C)2, 24.5gr pierced primer at MV 2686fps. No posted official data for this one but it's cratering primers with no ejector swipe, even for 24.0 and 23.5gr.

For Win Sta-match, once again pierced on 24.5gr charge with MV 2710fps. very light ejector swipe- but cratered primers on some 23.5 and 24.0gr charge.

So now my question is, am I just at the limit or is there something that's pulling me back? I just find it odd primer cratering is happening even when it's dialed back 1gr, and other people is able to load them past or right at the official max loads out of manuals.

Could it be from loose firing pin hole? Then it seems weird that it's only a few out of batches. Firing pin tip and hole both measures 0.078".
Soft primer? Ginex primers are known to be hard, exactly why I chose these.
Carbon ring? Deep cleaned with Bore-tech solvent and nylon brush for good half an hour. Chamber and rifling was shining clean.

Or, is it simply me being too greedy to push past the limit?

If you have any insight you can share with me, that would be great.
 
iceman106 said:
.223Rem- .223Wylde chamber, 22" 1-7.5" twist.
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did you find test data using a fast twist test-barrel?
iceman106 said:
other people is able to load them past or right at the official max loads out of manuals.
Click to expand...
must use apples-to-apples logic instead of fictitious data
iceman106 said:
Or, is it simply me being too greedy to push past the limit?
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its your choice to ignore pressure signs if you want, just don't have by-standers nearby
maynard said:
Stop chasing velocity
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should be the name on the cover of a reloaders manual
 
boxhitch said:
did you find test data using a fast twist test-barrel?

must use apples-to-apples logic instead of fictitious data

its your choice to ignore pressure signs if you want, just don't have by-standers nearby

should be the name on the cover of a reloaders manual
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maynard said:
Stop chasing velocity and work on accuracy. A slow hit trumps a fast miss. With 80.5 Bergers try some Varget or VV N140.
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Thanks for your constructive feedback. I try not to chase velocity, my 308Win load is actually very conservative since that's my accuracy load.

Unfortunately unlike 308Win, 80.5 223Rem has limited load data so that's why I'm venturing and trying to get feedbacks from others who may have done load dev. for this combo. I don't think primer is reliable means to tell the pressure, Good example would be B-14s and R700s. Like I said there is no ejector swipe or just barely under flashlight. Hence the thread. But I may be wrong. Anyhow, thanks for reminding me the basics.

Thunderhog said:
What rifle platform are you using out of curiosity?…:)
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It's Howa 1500 SA rebarreled.
 
iceman106 said:
This is my first summer with my new .223Rem- .223Wylde chamber, 22" 1-7.5" twist.
Trying out Berger 80.5 BTHP. All loaded with Starline 5.56NATO casings and Ginex SR primers, set for 2.455" COAL.

Only official data I found that I can compare with my test results is with 8208XBR -
Pierced primer @ MV 2650fps, Berger manual says max for 24" barrel is 2718 (AR mag length) so I'd say for 2" shorter barrel it checks out. Yet it still cratered primers on 1gr lesser loads.

Since it's 223Rem, I'd like faster MV. So I'm trying out two more powders:

For BL-(C)2, 24.5gr pierced primer at MV 2686fps. No posted official data for this one but it's cratering primers with no ejector swipe, even for 24.0 and 23.5gr.

For Win Sta-match, once again pierced on 24.5gr charge with MV 2710fps. very light ejector swipe- but cratered primers on some 23.5 and 24.0gr charge.

So now my question is, am I just at the limit or is there something that's pulling me back? I just find it odd primer cratering is happening even when it's dialed back 1gr, and other people is able to load them past or right at the official max loads out of manuals.

Could it be from loose firing pin hole? Then it seems weird that it's only a few out of batches. Firing pin tip and hole both measures 0.078".
Soft primer? Ginex primers are known to be hard, exactly why I chose these.
Carbon ring? Deep cleaned with Bore-tech solvent and nylon brush for good half an hour. Chamber and rifling was shining clean.

Or, is it simply me being too greedy to push past the limit?

If you have any insight you can share with me, that would be great.
Click to expand...
So is your rifle Built exactly the same as there test rifle ? 🤷‍♂️ Prob NOT ! Therefore advertised written stated info is just a GUIDE 👍 you work up to max in YOUR rifle and if it’s more fps Great if it’s less it is what it is .
You have tried different powders 👍 what about priimers ? What about brass ?
Yes primers can FLOW back into the firing pin hole if it’s a loose fit ,
No rifles are the same and require different loading Data . And ACURACY is King 👍
 
Too many pierced primers. That’s crazy. Try CCI.

My Savage gives me cratered looking primers, even at 2500fps, so I ignore that. I wouldn’t want ejector swipe or heavy bolt lift though.
 
For me I'm looking for the accuracy nod where everything comes together. I always do ladder test for powder charge , once I hit a good sd and es I go with seating depth to get that last little bit of accuracy out of it. Most of my accurate loads for .223 are below max . Everyone talks about speed to lower the affect of wind on your projectile for me it's about knowing your wind calls and repeatable recipe . Do you have some factory ammo with a heavier gr bullet to try like hornady match just to see what speed you are getting out of that combination
 
I also have an howa 1500 SA but in 1:8 twist. Usually i am very conservative with velocity; I do find that my slower loads are more accurate. However I was trying to find a good load for ELD-M 75 ; the Berger twist rate stability application (online) tells me that the 1;8 twist is too slow for these bullets but that at 2900fps I should have marginal stability. So I was venturing into hotter loads to achieve this. I could only reach 2900 with 25gr of N-140 but the primers are beginning to pierce (Federal GM-205M). This is past max load in the Hornady book but 1.2gr lower than max in the VV data.

I was also getting pierced primers with factory loads; Sellier&Bellot match 69gr (the red boxes). They were clocking at more than 3000 but for a box of 20, I was getting 4-6 pierced cartridges. I had bought a batch of 200 so I did opened them and reloaded them all with 2gr less powder each (also reseated longer) and didn't experience any problems after that. I also got misfiring but that was because some pierced primers metal was pushed back in the bolt and was preventing the pin to reach full out.

I do think that the Howa SA firing pin anatomy might have a part to play in all of this (I would think maybe a sliver too long or the spring too hard) but I'm not gonna begin to fiddle with that since I have loads that are doing OK.
 
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VV data shows good velocity with N150.

For your next barrel consider chamber specifications with the ISSF reamer or similar.
Shooting champ Bob Pitcairn did substantial testing with many chamber specs, one being a freebore of .184" , using a throater by Battle Creek Rifles in B.C.

Just heard from customer with standard Tikka chamber using 80.5 Bergers who advises as other posters that N140 is better suited than N150. N150 is more suited with 85.5 Bergers and a longer throat as per Pitcairn's testing.

Regards,

Peter
 
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A few fellas up here are using N140 in their .223's with the 80 grain and above weight bullets.
I still prefer Varget in my Wylde chambered .223 match rifles when using the 80.5's , 90's and 95 grain bullets.
Cat
 
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PlinkerFrog said:
I also got misfiring but that was because some pierced primers metal was pushed back in the bolt and was preventing the pin to reach full out.

I do think that the Howa SA firing pin anatomy might have a part to play in all of this (I would think maybe a sliver too long or the spring too hard)
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theres a good vid on YTu by someone that thinks Howa bolts need to have a fp bushing
 
Is this perhaps where the 22 arc would shine with reloads in a bolt gun? Not having to push it so hard to be able to get some decent velocity with those heavier 22 cal bullets? I don’t hear much tho of the 22 arc. Maybe it will be another one that dies out.
 
Mike112288 said:
Is this perhaps where the 22 arc would shine with reloads in a bolt gun? Not having to push it so hard to be able to get some decent velocity with those heavier 22 cal bullets? I don’t hear much tho of the 22 arc. Maybe it will be another one that dies out.
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I have both 223 rem and 22 arc. both are great. I like 22 arc when you get up into the 70-80gr range and above.

My 223 is limited to 2.260 COAL. With a custom free bore I would not hesitate to venture a bit heavier. As others have mentioned in this post; I don't usually end up near max pressure with my loads. My 223 is an IBI barrel and it shoots well but seems to be a bit slow and hit pressure a bit early.

My 24 inch 22 ARC runs an 88 ELDM at 2850 with factory ammo which is 52k psi or lower as it uses gas gun data. ~3k+ is achievable with 62k psi Bolt gun data and correct powder.
 
Dylan4570 said:
I have both 223 rem and 22 arc. both are great. I like 22 arc when you get up into the 70-80gr range and above.

My 223 is limited to 2.260 COAL. With a custom free bore I would not hesitate to venture a bit heavier. As others have mentioned in this post; I don't usually end up near max pressure with my loads. My 223 is an IBI barrel and it shoots well but seems to be a bit slow and hit pressure a bit early.

My 24 inch 22 ARC runs an 88 ELDM at 2850 with factory ammo which is 52k psi or lower as it uses gas gun data. ~3k+ is achievable with 62k psi Bolt gun data and correct powder.
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Which one would you choose in a bolt gun if you could have only one? Sounds like the arc sure can put out more jam !
 
Things to check...

Neck clearance... thick brass, thick necks = poor bullet release which can lead to pressure spikes

Smaller case volume... the 5.56 brass may be thick enough to affect case volume and load data for 'regular' brass can lead to higher pressures. Lower velocities for the same pressure would be typical.

Thin primer cups... try some CCI or Rem primers and see if you still get pierced primers. that is really hard on the firing pin so find a solution

if you can get some Win brass, load up and see if you still have the same issues.

Good luck.

Jerry
 
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