Athlon's and Arken's are great for starters, they offer good value for money, available in a variety of specs and are easy to buy/sell on the second-hand market. They work and are actually decent, when you later get a better feel/idea of what you want, you can upgrade
Opinion: Buying philosophy for optics
- Thread starter ApexLTD
- Start date
Tests that anyone can do to compare their scope vs big dollar products...
Resolution. Easiest is the license plate of a car at varying distance. Great optics can resolve out to 800yds+ when mirage is nil. Chain link fences and grout lines on chimneys are great frames of reference. I have a chimney at 1034yds that I use for this test
Clarity. Being able to make out objects in a clutter of objects. Larger objects like lawn chairs and people out to 1000yds+ (the very best have approached 1 mile on people). A stack of pop cans at 600yds can be a challenge.
Tracking. What you dial is what you get... first time, everytime. Many scopes have failed this over the decades regardless of price and brand. Tall target test is a great way to confirm this. 50yds for scopes with 30mils of travel so you don't need an excessive tall target. Adjustment values match reticle. Small adjustments cause poi shifts that match... no hesitation in poi for a click or more, then a big jump as the poi 'catches up'
POI shift. No poi shift under recoil or changing magnification. No shift in ZERO over long periods of time like weeks and months.
YMMV
Jerry
Resolution. Easiest is the license plate of a car at varying distance. Great optics can resolve out to 800yds+ when mirage is nil. Chain link fences and grout lines on chimneys are great frames of reference. I have a chimney at 1034yds that I use for this test
Clarity. Being able to make out objects in a clutter of objects. Larger objects like lawn chairs and people out to 1000yds+ (the very best have approached 1 mile on people). A stack of pop cans at 600yds can be a challenge.
Tracking. What you dial is what you get... first time, everytime. Many scopes have failed this over the decades regardless of price and brand. Tall target test is a great way to confirm this. 50yds for scopes with 30mils of travel so you don't need an excessive tall target. Adjustment values match reticle. Small adjustments cause poi shifts that match... no hesitation in poi for a click or more, then a big jump as the poi 'catches up'
POI shift. No poi shift under recoil or changing magnification. No shift in ZERO over long periods of time like weeks and months.
YMMV
Jerry
Some rules are easy to follow, most of us will never see a $6000 dollar scope let alone look through one... 
It's a golden age of manufacturing today and the scopes currently available in the $500-$1000 dollar range with lifetime transferable no paper work needed warranties have never been this good!
Everyone's eyes are different so what your eyes find acceptable for your needs might not work for someone else and vice-versa.
Learning what type of reticle you like and the difference between FFP and SFP in the type of real world shooting you do is part of learning but asking for advice on this forum is a good way to avoid learning the hard way if you can read between the lines and filter out some of the more fringe takes.
It was looking through a nice bushnell Elite 6500 yesterday and the classic mil dot dublex cross hair looked so out of date compared to some of the newer style reticles..... sure it works, but if I could wave a magic wand I'd update that reticle.
It's a golden age of manufacturing today and the scopes currently available in the $500-$1000 dollar range with lifetime transferable no paper work needed warranties have never been this good!
Everyone's eyes are different so what your eyes find acceptable for your needs might not work for someone else and vice-versa.
Learning what type of reticle you like and the difference between FFP and SFP in the type of real world shooting you do is part of learning but asking for advice on this forum is a good way to avoid learning the hard way if you can read between the lines and filter out some of the more fringe takes.
It was looking through a nice bushnell Elite 6500 yesterday and the classic mil dot dublex cross hair looked so out of date compared to some of the newer style reticles..... sure it works, but if I could wave a magic wand I'd update that reticle.
Not sure I'd run out and buy an FFP scope for target work, I have one on a .22LR I use to 300yds, 4.5-20x50, like it a lot as far as correcting using the reticle goes. I do have some issues with the ctr dot as it is pretty small even at 20x. Thinking I may just try out my old Nikon SFP 6.5-20x50 as it has 1/8MOA clicks on it, it just has a plain crosshair reticle in it, worked very well for me on other guns. I got by just fine with an SFP 3.5-10x50 on my 218Bee for 35yrs or so now, has target knob on elevation only, I just hold off for wind, no issues seeing holes at 200 with it on paper, just don't use black targets. 3-15 or a 4-16 SFP with a decent reticle and target knobs would work great with a 223. 4-20x is great too, the 15 or 16x is bearable with mirage, some days I have to turn the 20x down to the 12-15 zone to get around mirage, on the FFP that makes the reticle harder to work with. Times when you want to work with the mirage, times when you don't. Shot to 500 with a 3-9x40, 3.5-10x42, just hitting steel silos, works OK too. I have xmas trees, x-hairs w/ elev & windage markings, single ctr dot. Likle the simple x-hair w/elev & windage markings a lot, contemplating looking to see what is avail in an SFP, haven't looked yet, but, also aware they don't hold the measurements thru mag changes like an FFP, usually need to run them at full mag to use the markings.
It's always a bit of a tossup, some advantages and disadvantages and tradeoffs to be made with whatever you pick. I've gravitated to 1000.00 plus scopes for almost all my stuff now, between 1k & 2500 there are a lot of good choices, I like Japanese and EU built stuff, there is a difference once you get into the better glass, and some hit way above the price point Athlon, Delta, Sightron, Tract, Arken, Zeiss, Trijicon, Meopta, Maven, some Bushnells, haven't used any Nightforce, they have some too apparently. Think Leupold is a bit overpriced, is good though, served me well for alot of yrs, just that the glass on Zeiss and Swaro is a lot better, Delta and Tract were better than the Leupold was, maybe the new ones have caught up. Hearing there are turret issues with Leupold 5 and Zeiss V4, need to research that stuff too, don't be afraid to research "faults with", just be careful on the age of complaints, some older ones from 2015-2022 have been fixed on most brands.
It's always a bit of a tossup, some advantages and disadvantages and tradeoffs to be made with whatever you pick. I've gravitated to 1000.00 plus scopes for almost all my stuff now, between 1k & 2500 there are a lot of good choices, I like Japanese and EU built stuff, there is a difference once you get into the better glass, and some hit way above the price point Athlon, Delta, Sightron, Tract, Arken, Zeiss, Trijicon, Meopta, Maven, some Bushnells, haven't used any Nightforce, they have some too apparently. Think Leupold is a bit overpriced, is good though, served me well for alot of yrs, just that the glass on Zeiss and Swaro is a lot better, Delta and Tract were better than the Leupold was, maybe the new ones have caught up. Hearing there are turret issues with Leupold 5 and Zeiss V4, need to research that stuff too, don't be afraid to research "faults with", just be careful on the age of complaints, some older ones from 2015-2022 have been fixed on most brands.
You don’t know what you don’t know until you get into a particular activity. 209jones outlined a few issues above. It has lots of good info, as do many other posts.
I don’t know that I’d ever think a rifle was going to stay for one purpose forever as the OP thinks his .223 will do. I think I might have thought that when I was totally green, but now everything is fluid.
I have a .223 and with a shorter PRS match, it can be fun in the tactical division. FFP all the way!
As our interests change, a rifle’s main use may change. Same with the scope bought for it today. That scope will probably be moved to a different rifle.
For reloading my own ammo, I want high mag to make my job easier.
For shooting steel, I will use a lower mag.
Yesterday I was using my load development scope, a Sightron 10-50x60 in SFP, because I didn’t get a chance to swap out my PRS/LR scope, an Apex Rival 4.5-32x FFP scope.
So when trying to reach out to 1385m, I ran out of dial and had to use the crude mil-hash reticle, at certain mag values where I could use the hash marks to help. I had to drop it down to 12x to make it work.
My PRS scope would be a piece of cake. Read the kestrel, dial the scope at whatever mag I wanted, and ring the steel, even with a wind hold. The massive internal elevation and x-mas tree reticle makes it easy.
If I were to think about the 500m limitation, plenty of scopes would fit that. SFP or FFP. Still, for me, my personal bias to reloading would want high mag. I’d never buy a 3-9x scope for a square range.
I don’t know that I’d ever think a rifle was going to stay for one purpose forever as the OP thinks his .223 will do. I think I might have thought that when I was totally green, but now everything is fluid.
I have a .223 and with a shorter PRS match, it can be fun in the tactical division. FFP all the way!
As our interests change, a rifle’s main use may change. Same with the scope bought for it today. That scope will probably be moved to a different rifle.
For reloading my own ammo, I want high mag to make my job easier.
For shooting steel, I will use a lower mag.
Yesterday I was using my load development scope, a Sightron 10-50x60 in SFP, because I didn’t get a chance to swap out my PRS/LR scope, an Apex Rival 4.5-32x FFP scope.
So when trying to reach out to 1385m, I ran out of dial and had to use the crude mil-hash reticle, at certain mag values where I could use the hash marks to help. I had to drop it down to 12x to make it work.
My PRS scope would be a piece of cake. Read the kestrel, dial the scope at whatever mag I wanted, and ring the steel, even with a wind hold. The massive internal elevation and x-mas tree reticle makes it easy.
If I were to think about the 500m limitation, plenty of scopes would fit that. SFP or FFP. Still, for me, my personal bias to reloading would want high mag. I’d never buy a 3-9x scope for a square range.
I don’t care about you.
https://gobigtactical.ca/Tangent-Theta-TT525P-5-25x56mm/Some rules are easy to follow, most of us will never see a $6000 dollar scope let alone look through one...
It's a golden age of manufacturing today and the scopes currently available in the $500-$1000 dollar range with lifetime transferable no paper work needed warranties have never been this good!
Everyone's eyes are different so what your eyes find acceptable for your needs might not work for someone else and vice-versa.
Learning what type of reticle you like and the difference between FFP and SFP in the type of real world shooting you do is part of learning but asking for advice on this forum is a good way to avoid learning the hard way if you can read between the lines and filter out some of the more fringe takes.
It was looking through a nice bushnell Elite 6500 yesterday and the classic mil dot dublex cross hair looked so out of date compared to some of the newer style reticles..... sure it works, but if I could wave a magic wand I'd update that reticle.
Re fancy glass vs modest glass:
When I was at RFMA, I was able to directly compare my Apex Rival with a Leupold Mk 5 HD and I could see why Furlong isn’t running Apex there. The Leupold will allow you to see more detail and the image is brighter and clearer.
I’ve never looked through TT or S&B.
If I was shooting long range all the time like those guys, yeah, I’d dig deep and get a top scope. Until then, modest glass will get the job done. Esp for the OP’s requirement of max 500m (even though we all know he will eventually shoot longer).
When I was at RFMA, I was able to directly compare my Apex Rival with a Leupold Mk 5 HD and I could see why Furlong isn’t running Apex there. The Leupold will allow you to see more detail and the image is brighter and clearer.
I’ve never looked through TT or S&B.
If I was shooting long range all the time like those guys, yeah, I’d dig deep and get a top scope. Until then, modest glass will get the job done. Esp for the OP’s requirement of max 500m (even though we all know he will eventually shoot longer).
Apex is a rebranded riton scope
Worrying about scratching a scope is for poors. Then again wrapping a scope that never will get scratched/banged up because it lives on a range is another level
My Sightron compared to my March?
When the mirage is up and sun is bright , the Sightron will be turned down to 15 or 20×
The March will still be clear at 40x at 500 + yards
As far as hunting scopes go, my 1.5-4x Leupold does just fine at 300 yards.
Cat
When the mirage is up and sun is bright , the Sightron will be turned down to 15 or 20×
The March will still be clear at 40x at 500 + yards
As far as hunting scopes go, my 1.5-4x Leupold does just fine at 300 yards.
Cat
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Thanks for that comparison. I have a Sightron SIII 10-50x60.
When I was shooting in this mess, even at 600m, it was hard to see the shot up grey steel from the background. Now I’m curious what a top scope could do in really crappy conditions.
I like the Sightrons, they are good value for a scope for the money, but for a top shelf Fclass scope when the chips are down, they can be at a disadvantage for those that shoot to win.Thanks for that comparison. I have a Sightron SIII 10-50x60.
When I was shooting in this mess, even at 600m, it was hard to see the shot up grey steel from the background. Now I’m curious what a top scope could do in really crappy conditions.
That would not deter me from buying ine, however!
Cat
That's extreme conditions in anybody books! LOLThanks for that comparison. I have a Sightron SIII 10-50x60.
When I was shooting in this mess, even at 600m, it was hard to see the shot up grey steel from the background. Now I’m curious what a top scope could do in really crappy conditions.
Cat
Certainly lots of factors to consider on buying scopes, another is tube lengths and the relationships to the rail and mounts to get the eye relief distance right to be a natural lineup when you get on the gun in different positions. Sometimes the rail is too short, sometimes the turret or objective won't allow you space the rings the way you want, maybe the 1pc style mount would work better in that instance than 2pc, if you can find the reight height, and it's a bit like reloading for different guns---they are all different, just as you are different from the next guy. There are a whack of different brands, finding what you want can be a chore sometimes. Some of that dtuff is not really budget friendly either, not all that difficult to wind up with a few sets that don't really work right for you.. Doesn't hurt to check reticles against different backgrounds and light situations to see how easy they are to see against them, or not. Comfort behind the gun involves the scope too, things that are awkward or difficult aren't going to help your shooting, create too many things to concentrate on, the less to think about, the better.
You sound vaccinated.
