Russian American Armoury "Saiga" -- Legal in Canada?

Amandil

Amandil

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Hi All, here's a noob question for you (don't even know if this is the right forum):

My guess is that the Russian American Armory "Saiga" autoloading rifle (http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga.htm) isn't legal in Canada, but I'm not sure how much so and why.

1. Prohibited? Apparently, this rifle is "developed on the base of the venerable Kalashnikov assault rifle and chambered for 7.62x39 and .223 Rem (5.56x45) cartridges." Does that mean under Canadian law, it is a "variant or modified version of" the AK-47 rifle? How the heck am I supposed to find out?

2. Restricted? The barrel length is apparently either 16.3" or 20.47" (customer choice, or something else I'm not aware of?), and it doesn't fold to below 26" in length.

It sounds like it'd be a nice alternative to the (apparently less-than-optimally accurate) Ruger Mini-14, especially for shooting at coyotes in .223 (again, though, I'm guessing!).

Any thoughts?
 
prohib

nope prohib :( we had a importer for izhmash years ago rusarm or somthing like that and they had a boat load of saigas confiscated cause while they fall under "it should be legal" the rcmp snaged em all like good socialists.
 
You might consider a Valmet Hunter or M78, both non-restricted and specifically named as non-restricted. I believe both were originally prohibited by name, but due to a successful court case, were re-classified by OIC as non-restricted. Go figure!
 
price

i was thinking about that a while back.. i think it has to do with price and availability the rcmp doesnt want the boys in toronto to have the readily available option of an AK47. I mean as it stands now there are only a few valmets and there way out of the crazy criminal price range but if the market was flooded with 4-500 dollar izh's i think it would make the rcmp a lil weak in the knees. and yes i know lol crimes are commited by unregitered weapons 99.9% of the time lol but the libs dont see it that way.

so my personal opinion is it has to do with availability.
 
tex_on_the_trigger said:
i was thinking about that a while back.. i think it has to do with price and availability the rcmp doesnt want the boys in toronto to have the readily available option of an AK47. I mean as it stands now there are only a few valmets and there way out of the crazy criminal price range but if the market was flooded with 4-500 dollar izh's i think it would make the rcmp a lil weak in the knees. and yes i know lol crimes are commited by unregitered weapons 99.9% of the time lol but the libs dont see it that way.

so my personal opinion is it has to do with availability.
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Same could go for the SKS.
 
not really

wouldnt say that Canam its a 10 round rifle for the most part and most dont even know of it as an option it doesnt carry the stigma that the almighty kalashnikov does.
 
tex_on_the_trigger said:
i was thinking about that a while back.. i think it has to do with price and availability the rcmp doesnt want the boys in toronto to have the readily available option of an AK47. I mean as it stands now there are only a few valmets and there way out of the crazy criminal price range but if the market was flooded with 4-500 dollar izh's i think it would make the rcmp a lil weak in the knees. and yes i know lol crimes are commited by unregitered weapons 99.9% of the time lol but the libs dont see it that way.

so my personal opinion is it has to do with availability.
Click to expand...

I don't think the type of firearm really matters, anything in 7.62x39 would perform pretty similarly to an AK in 99% of situations I can think off involving criminals.
 
tex_on_the_trigger said:
nope prohib :( we had a importer for izhmash years ago rusarm or somthing like that and they had a boat load of saigas confiscated cause while they fall under "it should be legal" the rcmp snaged em all like good socialists.
Click to expand...

Yes, Russian Armory, i got 12Ga semiautomatic from him, years ago, but not Saiga (МЦ21-12), but he promised to bring it later and some other good stuff... The latest i heard he closed business and went back to Russia ;-(
 
You might consider a Valmet Hunter or M78, both non-restricted and specifically named as non-restricted. I believe both were originally prohibited by name, but due to a successful court case, were re-classified by OIC as non-restricted. Go figure!
Click to expand...

Actually, the real reason it was changed is even more comical. See, the basis of the prohibition on the AK series and derivatives is that it has no practical sporting purpose, and it looks scary (honestly, they went through guns digest and banned stuff based on looks alone in many cases). However, unbeknowst to the gun grabbers, the Valmets, which had been banned by name as a derivative, existed in very large quantities in Canada's north, where the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT had given out mass amounts to the Inuit, purchased on the cheap from Valmet when they closed up shop.

Faced with the ridiculous prospect of arresting the Inuit for posession of an prohibited firearm, on the basis that it had no sporting purpose, but that the same government had given them for the sporting purpose, the end result was a new OIC being issued undoing the ban.

That's my understanding, although I am welcome to be corrected.
 
Guys...... That's the exact lineup of rifles and shotguns thare were waiting for approoval of the RCMP since 2004 here in Montreal ( 2 containers full ). Those are the same models that Valeri at Russian armories wantend to sell on the canadian market. Unfortunately, he went bankrupt in 2006 after a long legal battle with the RCMP and CFC...
 
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The reality is that there were many hundreds (thousands) of AK's legally imported into Canada in the 80's and early 90's. As soon as the prohib OIC's came in most of these rifles (ones that went directly from unregistered unrestricted to prohib) simply went bad - you know that once a rifle is past it's "sell by date" it simply vanishes, don't you? :rolleyes: Because it would make the "new" gun control look like an absolute farce, and coincidently the streets aren't running with the blood of innocent "AK victims" the authorities are quietly ignoring the numbers. They don't want to look like idiots. The reality is that those guns are out there, owned by people who are otherwise law abiding and were "made into" criminals due to paperwork.
 
Paul Morrison said:
Actually, the real reason it was changed is even more comical. See, the basis of the prohibition on the AK series and derivatives is that it has no practical sporting purpose, and it looks scary (honestly, they went through guns digest and banned stuff based on looks alone in many cases). However, unbeknowst to the gun grabbers, the Valmets, which had been banned by name as a derivative, existed in very large quantities in Canada's north, where the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT had given out mass amounts to the Inuit, purchased on the cheap from Valmet when they closed up shop.

Faced with the ridiculous prospect of arresting the Inuit for posession of an prohibited firearm, on the basis that it had no sporting purpose, but that the same government had given them for the sporting purpose, the end result was a new OIC being issued undoing the ban.

That's my understanding, although I am welcome to be corrected.
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So where did all these Valmets end up? I keep hearing about this but if there were so many shouldn't more be on the market? I'm sure any Inuit hunter who heard they could get 4k for their Valmet would be selling it.

I really want one for some inexplicable reason but I just can't see spending $4500 for the one in the EE. If any native hunters out there have a cheap Valmet kicking around PM me.
 
I wish someone had bought out Armrus and kept the business going, they had LOTS of rather cool stuff over there (not to mention that Valeri was a quite entertaining guy, I used to drop by every now and then and drool on their guns).... Incidentally, I've been sitting on a TOZ99 with a broken sear (snapped in half) for about 2 years now and nobody in North America seems to be willing to start importing some of these things again, or even parts for them ....

I don't know what it is about Russian firearms, but nobody seems to want to touch them with a 10 foot pole these days .... go figure ... Maybe some day someone will come up with a transcript of the court case with Armrus so we can finally figure out what the heck the judge was thinking, and/or what arguments were brought up, as I have a real feeling that the word "variant" was finally defined in court which is a significant thing for the 12(x) list and how to fight it. My understanding is that the CFC had approved them and even issued registration certificates for them, but a single CBSA officer decided otherwise once they landed, and the RCMP then piled on the charges. The guy was anything but stupid, samples had been provided for classification, but the powers that be all of a sudden decided to change their mind and Valeri was out of well over 100K in inventory, add the legal costs to this and it's not hard to see how a guy can go bankrupt.

simonyzer said:
Guys...... That's the exact linut of rifles and shotguns thare were waiting for approoval of the RCMP since 2004 here in Montreal ( 2 containers full ). Those are the same models that Valeri at Russian armories wantend to sell on the canadian market. Unfortunately, he went bankrupt in 2006 after a long legal battle with the RCMP and CFC...
Click to expand...
 
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