PGW Timberwolf VS. DSR-1

[Otokiak]

PGW Timberwolf only because my friend "catworks" on the board used to own one and let me shoot it ... never handled a DSR-1 ... looks quite deadly and sweet mind you ...

Otokiak
Rankin Inlet, NU
CANADA

P.S. wish I had enough funds to purchase a .338 ...

 

[GunBoy]

I would say that the Timberwolf is one of those rifles a collector or shooter must have, If you have the money man, go for, there is no substitution...

 

[darkshadow]

The last I read there were people waiting for eons for there order, even someones out several thousand dollars and months and months past the promised delivery date, and still no gun, no word.

Has that changed, are they caught up again?

 

[GunBoy]

No, they already fix it , it was a misunderstanding and Ross and steve already corrected the problem, the last I talk to them was several month ago, and they have the rifles to go. don't believe everything people say, check it out for youself...

 

[darkshadow]

Nah, I just had not read any follow through, it is not a bad thing to be busy filling the GOV orders , and be unable to fill the civi orders. Gotta pay the bills.

Glad they got every thing worked out, awesome to have a true Canadian maker of a world class firearm to call our own. Sure wish I could get a piece of hardware like that.

 

[B]

If they are too busy filling government orders why would they be taking money from civilians?

 

[redman]

to be able to order up a gun 'a la carte' tailoring the gun to the type of bullet you want to shoot taking into consideration twist rate

Doesn't the manufacturer match the twist rate to the round that's being used? Why would they use an inappropriate rate?

I think either one of these two guns would be bought to fullfill a dream or because of the name associated with the product.

I don't think it's always like that; I went factory because I wanted to buy a "system" versus parts that were developped separately and then laboured over to make work together. Besides, these rifles have earned a reputation - that's got to be worth something.

 

[beltfed]

Actually you may be right. Looking at the stats for Canada in WWI it looks like we had a fair number of top snipers.

In WWII the Russians and Germans definately had the majority.

Actually at the start of WWI the Germans already had a sniper program in place, where as the British and Canadians had to play catch-up. The Germans kept up there sniper caudre in the inter-war years where as the Allies let the wheels fall off. I believe the Germans trained much of the Russians prior to WWII.

As to the DSR-1, I fired one and while a fine piece of kit, I'd never cough up that much cash for one. I think even less so for the PGW.

 

[Glock-a-maniac]

Doesn't the manufacturer match the twist rate to the round that's being used? Why would they use an inappropriate rate?



I don't think it's always like that; I went factory because I wanted to buy a "system" versus parts that were developped separately and then laboured over to make work together. Besides, these rifles have earned a reputation - that's got to be worth something.

That's like saying car manufacturers produce a car that can't be improved upon. The 338LM has already been greatly improved upon and since the military uses a 250gr bullet and a loose chamber is required, guess what Joe civilian is going to get. Also, for a $150 more, you can get a three way adjustable McMillan A5 rear spacer system, given the choice again, why wouldn't you want that, like that Ackley Improved chamber at no extra cost. Things like a threaded and contoured muzzle brake system and longer barrel. Not to mention a +20, +30 or +40 MOA rail and jewel trigger for the same money...
People blindly figure that if it's good enough for the military well then it's got to be good enough for civilian use. Snipers are shooting at man sized targets, not shooting for bulleyes and ultra tight groups. Theres a difference.
That's my take on production vs full custom for the same money.

 

[redman]

True, I forgot about bullet weight & twist rate

What kind of weight is popular for civilian competitions?

Also, why did the CF choose 250gr? And why would they make a loose chamber? Is it to account for variances in military (vs. match) grade brass?

Thanks

That's like saying car manufacturers produce a car that can't be improved upon. The 338LM has already been greatly improved upon and since the military uses a 250gr bullet and a loose chamber is required, guess what Joe civilian is going to get. Also, for a $150 more, you can get a three way adjustable McMillan A5 rear spacer system, given the choice again, why wouldn't you want that, like that Ackley Improved chamber at no extra cost. Things like a threaded and contoured muzzle brake system and longer barrel. Not to mention a +20, +30 or +40 MOA rail and jewel trigger for the same money...
People blindly figure that if it's good enough for the military well then it's got to be good enough for civilian use. Snipers are shooting at man sized targets, not shooting for bulleyes and ultra tight groups. Theres a difference.
That's my take on production vs full custom for the same money.

 

[RePete]

That's like saying car manufacturers produce a car that can't be improved upon. The 338LM has already been greatly improved upon and since the military uses a 250gr bullet and a loose chamber is required, guess what Joe civilian is going to get. Also, for a $150 more, you can get a three way adjustable McMillan A5 rear spacer system, given the choice again, why wouldn't you want that, like that Ackley Improved chamber at no extra cost. Things like a threaded and contoured muzzle brake system and longer barrel. Not to mention a +20, +30 or +40 MOA rail and jewel trigger for the same money...
People blindly figure that if it's good enough for the military well then it's got to be good enough for civilian use. Snipers are shooting at man sized targets, not shooting for bulleyes and ultra tight groups. Theres a difference.
That's my take on production vs full custom for the same money.

Mine doesn't have a loose chamber, it's standard.

I've been shooting 225gr Nosler Accubonds, 250gr Scenars, 250gr LockBase, and have just started to shoot 300gr Sierra's.

The C14's (which mine is) come with the A5 stock with the adjustable spacer system and a 40MOA base. The Rifle Basix trigger that's on the rifle is as good as some and better than most.

 

[Mystic Precision]

True, I forgot about bullet weight & twist rate

What kind of weight is popular for civilian competitions?

Also, why did the CF choose 250gr? And why would they make a loose chamber? Is it to account for variances in military (vs. match) grade brass?

Thanks

The 338LM is rarely used in target match shooting in NA except 1000yd BR. Most matches don't allow magnums.

The 250gr was a byproduct of requirements set by the US govt. many years ago. Like the 147gr 308 and 55gr 223, a compromise to meet various goals. Now new bullets have changed the performance potential of the LM as far as civilian shooters go. A 10 twist will still launch them all.

A working rifle is ALWAYS chambered on the loose side vs ammo spec (no different then hunting rifles). It needs this space to ensure proper functioning when wet and/or dirty. Still there are ways to design the chamber so that function is proper without giving up accuracy.

Another reason that sharp shouldered, no taper cases will not find its way into service. There are just too many chances for poor feeding and extraction. 30deg shoulder max and 15thou taper min help rifles run when things get mucky.

There are reasons why car factories 'under rate' components like Engines. They have to give reliable performance over an enormous variety of conditions, users and driving environment without breaking down.

Racers can tune to be far more specific in application and performance, however, long life and ease of use are not one of them.

Big reason why I feel using very high pressure 'undersized' cases in a working gun is not a good idea. There is simply no room for error.

There is such a broad understanding now of what makes a rifle tick that there really is no right or wrong process. Just the wrong application of that process given the tasks. It's always a compromise.

YMMV>

Jerry

 

[redman]

Thanks for that explanation, Jerry.

I have to ask something else in regards to Glock-a-maniac's response:
- I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, but you said that "Snipers are shooting at man sized targets, not shooting for bulleyes and ultra tight groups. Theres a difference."
- My understanding of the military is that they will award a contract to the bidder that meets the largest number of requirements at the lowest price.

Considering the two points above, why are the CF paying so much for a rifle that can be outdone, according to you, by other manufacturers?? Is the rest of the rifle somehow far superior to the offerings you had in mind?

Military hardware price-wise, I'm noticing this trend of with the M24 in the US; I checked the list price and for the rifle + scope alone: it's 7000$!! Are military manufacturers just jacking up prices for civvies or what? Just marketing BS?

I'd welcome your feedback.

 

[Mystic Precision]

govt procurement tends to get 'higher' pricing then civi's due in large part to the liability the manf might have to ensure completion of the contracts.

however, with the enormous cost overruns on most projects, maybe not such a big deal. Maybe there is a liability factor ie lawsuits. Or maybe they can just charge that much?????

You are right that the costs are WAAAYYY up there for so called military gear. Not sure what is included as far as support goes but does seem a bit much.

Saying that, there are many custom rifle makers that charge alot more for a rifle then the sum of the parts/labour. Costs in part include performance guarantees, cache of maker, and what the market is willing to pay (perceived value).

why is a BMW that much more expensive then an Infinity? Or a Cadillac over a Camry?

If the owner sees value in the price/product, then the costs are right on.

Jerry

 

[mebiuspower]

German engineering at its finest.

 

[Ian Robertson]

Don't assume the military has the best there is, politics are still often involved and a number of other factors.

 

[sendero]

I have voted DSR-1 ; I have million minutes over the phone, tons of e-mail all to PGW WITH NO ANSWER, even not a WE DON'T HAVE TIME...

I have switched to a TRG-42 because a LOT of good word about it, WAY much easyer to get than a PGW and even Zack smith test it side by side against a AI and accuracy wise, they are about the same so price wise, i choose the TRG...

i'am now in love with the .338LM caliber, and really think buying a DSR-1 and see wich i like most for hunting... i don't speak about accuracy here as i have no doubdt that both rifle will outshoot a lot of shooter including me...

Sendero

 

[redman]

If the owner sees value in the price/product, then the costs are right on.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, although I was hoping that Glock-a-maniac would've chimed in since I was asking something in reference to what he posted. That last line though really hits home, btw

That having been said, I understand your point of cost overruns if it was a ground-up project specifically for the military, but isn't PGW just offering a product that they already produce (i.e. the Timberwolf)? I imagine they'd be getting a bargain since they just have to churn out more of 'em.

Don't assume the military has the best there is, politics are still often involved and a number of other factors.

True, but at the same time, aren't their specs for ruggedness pretty harsh? I mean, you won't go to war with your rifle case, lubricant and cleaning rod, whilst shooting off a bench, if you know what I mean.

and really think buying a DSR-1 and see wich i like most for hunting...

Where in Quebec would you shoot that thing? Club de Tir l'Acadie's 100m range or Pionnier's 200y range? Seriously though, do you know any places to shoot long range in Qc except Valcartier & Farnham (too far and too restricted, respectively)?

p.s. We need more PGW Timberwolf ####; I was sitting on the fence but am now leaning towards DSR b/c of all these pics

 

[Glock-a-maniac]

Mine doesn't have a loose chamber, it's standard.

I've been shooting 225gr Nosler Accubonds, 250gr Scenars, 250gr LockBase, and have just started to shoot 300gr Sierra's.

The C14's (which mine is) come with the A5 stock with the adjustable spacer system and a 40MOA base. The Rifle Basix trigger that's on the rifle is as good as some and better than most.

Regarding a loose chamber or not, I guess it all depends if you reload or not and what conditions you put your gun through. Measure a non-fired casing at the neck and then measure a fired casing. If you neck size only, the difference between a tight chamber and a loose chamber will become evident.

On your stock, I'd imagine you have the rubber spacer system. The other stock I'm mentioning is the alluminum 3 way adjustable which serves a couple purposes. Like your stock, you can adjust the length of pull. This one, you can cant it slightly to fit your shoulder better because your muscles aren't straight up and down and also you can raise and lower the butt for shooting off the bench or prone increase the contact area. Also, the rear weight balances a longer barrel a lot better though it's a little heavier. For the money, it should be an option because when compared, 95% of the customers go with the 3 way system.

Regarding, why these guns cost so much for the military. I think Jerry is bang on with regards to maintenance contracts and service work to follow the delivery. I'd imagine the Canadian military wanted something Canadian if it was possible and the PGW was able to bring something to the table that given the parameters, would fit the bill. Good on them.

 

[sendero]

Where in Quebec would you shoot that thing? Club de Tir l'Acadie's 100m range or Pionnier's 200y range? Seriously though, do you know any places to shoot long range in Qc except Valcartier & Farnham (too far and too restricted, respectively)?

p.s. We need more PGW Timberwolf ####; I was sitting on the fence but am now leaning towards DSR b/c of all these pics

Well my friend, if you look carefully, there is something north of Montréal, and north of Verdun too BTW, if you ever cross the PARC LAVERENDRY, there is few town on this side and i have probably more 1mile, 2 miles and longer than that field than you will ever dream of... 15 minutes north of my home, the nearest city is at 200km, past this one, the nearest living human is again at least 380km, only at my hunting spot, the nearest hunter is about 5km in straight line... I have no prob shooting 50BMG out to 5 milles if you need to, just let me know... He he, i don't care if i can't have a pop from a machine or buy a chip from a clerk during my shooting session, all i whant is reload and shoot as much as i whant....