Which muzzle loader?

[1899]

And a compound bow, shooting carbon arrows, with expanding broadheads, fibre optic sights, and laser range-finders, while using a release aid is PRIMITIVE???
I have no problem with new bows, or new muzzleloaders. I wish other sportsmen could just accept the differences, and STOP the in-fighting.
Once the anti's start picking on your chosen firearm, then you will realize the can of worms that you have opened.

No, you miss the point. The reason some areas had EXTRA hunting opportunities was because primitive weapons meant short range, and therefore less game harvested. It is a way to have some harvest without having to close a season or move to a draw.

Now bring in scopes, 150gr charges, sabots etc, and you double your effective range, increase ability to shoot in fading light and increase the harvest. So the response is to close the season, because the harvest with the inline is effectively the same as with a centerfire rifle. That makes you happy? That is a good solution? The better solution is to restrict equipment, but increase hunting seasons and opportunities.

A compound bow has an effective range of 40-50 yards. Why are you comparing that with a +200 yard capability? It makes no sense!

 

[beefman]

Well I'm glad I live in E. Ont. then....cause we don't have any of this in-fighting over trad vs modern. For deer we get 1 tag a year (maybe more depending on availability)
....kill it with a bow, your done. Kill it with a shotgun/ML in the 2 week season, your done. Or wait till late ML and kill it. Its up to you.
And the bow thing was brought up because someone said that innovations in technology made it not "primitive", And I was comparing the two, as they (bowhunters) had this debate 35 years ago.

 

[Rick]

These restrictions are all in place to avoid wounding game animals, not to limit the success of hunters. Using your theory, the traditional BP guns would not be permitted, and only in-lines would be.

If you bother to look at the history and the ongoing discussion regarding those restrictions between hunter representation groups and the BC government, much of that came from HUNTERS, not realistic concerns about wounding from Ministry employees. They get sold as that occasionally, but that's not what it is all about, and it doesn't take long to see just how irrational they are.

A 12 gauge shotgun with slugs is illegal for hunting elk and moose in BC. That's "in place to avoid wounding game animals", you say? Why, because that 425 grain slug at 1600 fps is too anemic and might only wound the animal? Gimme a break.

Meanwhile, a .22 Hornet is perfectly legal for hunting grizzly bear, should you draw a tag. No concerns about wounding game animals there?

Does anyone see ANY logic in that whatsoever?

Archery? You don't have to go very far to find rifle hunters who think bowhunting should be banned because "it wounds too many animals". They're talking out of their asses of course, but you should get the idea. When I was on the regional executive, we were STILL getting resolutions from a few clubs that bowhunting be banned because of how "unsportsmanlike" it is.

If the provincial government ever does get serious about the issue of wounding (which I highly doubt will ever happen), we'll all be going through a supervised shooting test with our bows or our rifles before we ever get our license, just like in parts of Europe. I'm philosophically opposed to the government regulating the snot out of every single thing we do in life, but still, a marksmanship exam before you get your license under realistic field conditions would probably be rather enjoyable to watch. I've seen far too many guys banging away at a deer or elk at ridiculous ranges, under the apparent impression that if they can see it in their scope, their super duper laser magnum will knock it dead.

 

[CROWCA]

Do what I do only hunt like I do.That fight has been around forever.

For the primitive Hunter:
I think the only way you should be able to take a game animal is to chase it down jump on it choke it to death,all other hunting methods are to easy.

For the modern Hunter:
Satellite guided laser,controlled from your computer,no need to leave the house.No animal recovery necessary nuked to ash.

We should all be happy now.

 

[blargon]

A 12 gauge shotgun with slugs is illegal for hunting elk and moose in BC. That's "in place to avoid wounding game animals", you say? Why, because that 425 grain slug at 1600 fps is too anemic and might only wound the animal? Gimme a break.

Sorry, I was talking about the gauge size restrictions, not the slug issue. I agree that is pretty stupid.

In one area I hunt here, I can shoot gophers and coyotes with my .338WM, but must use a shotgun or ML for deer or bear.

 

[Rick]

And a compound bow, shooting carbon arrows, with expanding broadheads, fibre optic sights, and laser range-finders, while using a release aid is PRIMITIVE???

The archery season in BC has never been described as a "primitive" season.

I hunt both trad and with a compound as do my brothers. With all the latest advances in archery equipment, you're still talking about a 40 yard maximum effective range, realistically. So you've gained a walloping 15 extra yards over somebody using traditional equipment. Not exactly an immense increase in opportunities. And hunter success rates with archery equipment remain extremely low compared to the general open season, so game managers don't mind archery only seasons because they have very low harvest numbers. Most of the limitations on bow only seasons is that managers face heavy pressure from rifle hunters complaining that archers are getting "unfair" opportunities i.e. the archers can hunt and they can't. Partially because of that, the youth rifle season now runs during the archery season - which in turn reduces archer success even further.

I have no problem with new bows, or new muzzleloaders. I wish other sportsmen could just accept the differences, and STOP the in-fighting.

It isn't about accepting differences, particularly in the case of muzzleloaders. It is about the fact that game managers look at success rates with traditional muzzleloaders in comparison to success rates with modern inlines burning smokeless powder and mounting high powered scopes. The enhanced success rates with modern inlines is right about up there with centerfire rifles - not surprising considering studies done in BC a while back showed the average distance a big game animal was shot in this province is about 175 yards. That's well within the effective range of pretty much any modern inline out there, just as it is for most of the centerfire rifles used in hunting.

Once the anti's start picking on your chosen firearm, then you will realize the can of worms that you have opened.

That is not the issue at all in BC. Of course, it's worth noting that when the anti's have attacked bowhunting in this province as "inhumane", rifle-only hunters haven't exactly sprang to their defense.

 

[Rick]

Do what I do only hunt like I do.That fight has been around forever.

Yet again, in BC, it has to do with success ratio's and harvest levels, not what is the "right" way to hunt. There are lots of snobs/fear mongers out there who will tell anyone who will listen why somebody else shouldn't be able to hunt with their chosen equipment, but they don't have much influence at all, at least these days.

The bottom line is that wildlife managers in BC are never going to tack on an additional season for muzzleloaders when, pragmatically, an inline muzzleloader with a scope attached shooting sabots with smokeless powder gives up little or nothing to the average centerfire rifle out there. Success ratios would be the same or very close, and therefore they aren't going to tack on extra time before or after the GOS for a muzzleloader season.

 

[1899]

Rick, thank you for taking the time to write responses. I don't know why some people have such a hard time understanding the real issue. Every time a topic like this comes up you get people with their panties in a knot with "infighting" and "do only as I do" BS.

 

[adriel]

the average distance a big game animal was shot in this province is about 175 yards. That's well within the effective range of pretty much any modern inline out there, just as it is for most of the centerfire rifles used in hunting.

Considering that you're looking at about a 150yd max for most inlines, a 175 yard average would rule out a ton of opportunities. As well, on this board we're all 1-shot-1-kill kind of hunters, but there must be people out there who would be hindered more by having only 1 shot, right .

If harvests using ML's are near equal to centerfire, it's not because the equipment is "just as good". If anything, the people using the equipment have more time, less competition for good spots, or are just plain better at hunting.

 

[catnthehatt]

I've really got my heart set on a Lyman GPR .50 flintlock with the slow twist rifling. I'm just wondering what kind of experiences other people have had with them before I go out and buy one?

The lyman is a very good gun for the money, I've shot several and done upgrades to them like locks, triggers, etc.
The barrels are not too bad, but once you put a REALLY GOOD barrel like a Green Mountain or a Smith on there, you get into a whole new realm of accuracy!
But for the money as an economical rifle, they are hard to beat, point well, and easy to keep....
Cat

 

[catnthehatt]

And a compound bow, shooting carbon arrows, with expanding broadheads, fibre optic sights, and laser range-finders, while using a release aid is PRIMITIVE???
I have no problem with new bows, or new muzzleloaders. I wish other sportsmen could just accept the differences, and STOP the in-fighting.
Once the anti's start picking on your chosen firearm, then you will realize the can of worms that you have opened.

Nope, I never said any modern archery gear is primitive, in fact I do not consider my composite glass and purple heart take down flat bow primitive for that matter.

Cat

 

[srt4u2nv]

I picked up a nice CVA Optima Pro with a bushnell scope and a case for $299.98 from BPS....from the reviews I have seen they are shooters I also picked up some 270gr platnium powerbelts and Jim Shockey Gold compressed powder sticks....should have it sighted in, in the next few days I will post a range report going to sight it in dead on 100yds........

Should I use 150gr of powder or 100gr? I think its about 1950fps with 150grs and about 1750fps with 100grs......

 

[Huntsman]

With 150grs I get close to 2250fps (26"bbl) with a 250gr SST

 

[srt4u2nv]

With 150grs I get close to 2250fps (26"bbl) with a 250gr SST

what powder is that using?

 

[bobbyjack]

I have a cva hawkin I bought in 97 for 50.00,and I just bought a Thompson Center Hawkin today for 80.00.

The TC/50 has much better walnut wood and better fit,and the barrel to back lock up is much stronger.

I like both but haven't fired the TC yet,with 90 grains of 3f and conical bullets the CVA will hit anything you can see.

Bo)

 

[Musketfire]

Get yourself a good smoothbore large caliber flintlock "62-75 cal"

Practise with it and you will be able to take any game on the continent within 50-60 yards
+ you get a really high quality gun you will enjoy shooting for many years to come, something special you can hand down generation to generation giving your coming ancestors a tie directly to you. "how cool is that"

The only thing I have against the plastic stocked modern things is their look of disposeability , all the plastic feels cheap to me ...

When your going to lay down your hard earned cash...why the heck NOT get something really special?
Within 900$$ you can get a relyable arm that will last for generations.

But in the end its all about what you want quick cheap and easy or something that will really challenge you.

My 2 cents.

 

[Huntsman]

what powder is that using?

Triple7

 

[srt4u2nv]

the Jim shockeys wont give the same fps as T7 its more along the lines of pyrodex its a bit slower.

 

[rdelliott]

Pooh-Pooh on you. It is a 1-shot deal...its a state of mind in hunting game. Its NOT a centerfire rifle.

I think that modern muzzleloaders are a great argument for having a muzzle loader season, plus another "primitive firearms" season; percussion and flint only, no optics, no electronics, no composite furniture, roundball or conicals only... because while undoubtedly excellent hunting arms, and I have nothing against them, modern muzzleloaders are just plain lacking in the sheer brute retro coolosity that draw a lot of us to smokepoles.

For the record, Lyman Great Plains Hunter, flintlock, .50, 1/32".

 

[rdelliott]

I've really got my heart set on a Lyman GPR .50 flintlock with the slow twist rifling. I'm just wondering what kind of experiences other people have had with them before I go out and buy one?

I bought the 1:32" model as my first gun four years ago, when it became apparent that I was not going to be getting my PAL in time to get enough practice in prior to deer season.

The learning curve was steep. I didn't read the recommendation on the Pyrodex bottle that I put a kicker charge of FFFFG down the barrel first, and had all sorts of trouble getting it to ignite.

I've since switched to GOEX FFG, and do not plan on going back to Pyrodex. Pyrodex ignites slower in my rifle, and is every bit as foul as the real stuff.

Be prepared to invest a lot of time and practice. Flintlocks are finicky, and it takes a while to get up to speed with them. Maybe not the best choice for a first gun (you can learn to shoot reasonably well much better with, say, a 10/22) but I still consider the time I spent fiddling around learning how to make mine go bang properly well invested.

My GPR is one of my favourite guns; it lives on my home office wall. It's fun to shoot, more accurate than I am, looks nice, and just plain has much more character than any of my other guns.