Exemptions Gone

stormbringer said:
Then their "logic" as I suspect is right out the window.

This just stinks.
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Their logic is flawed:D
It does not make any sense.
Do they even shoot IPSC in the US?
I know the answer!
They really don't
I want the stuff that the IPSC exec is smoking.
What is Nick smoking these days?
 
I have to say I don't see the big deal. buy new mags. we should never have had the exemptions anyhow. you've got 6 months to sell your old ones, and get new ones. we knew this was going to happen sooner or later. the only thing that annoys me is that I was told we had a good chance of getting an exemption for the Metric Target. but in the end even that one isn't that big of a deal to me. I think the total number of shooters this is actually going to affect is very small. How many actually shoot in the USA and actually use the larger mags? not many. Most of the people with the bigger mags don't even travel outside their own province, let alone Canada. Sell those mags to some Americans, or trade them, and get legal ones.
 
How many shooters in Canada use a singlestack 1911? The switch to the shorter mags puts the singlestack at a disadvantage with capacity. Pretty bad you need a widebody frame to get a 10 round gun.
 
Why not start a single stack division for those with single stack .45acps? I know there are not a lot of shooters involved but we have revolver divisions that aren't exactly standing room only. Slavex makes a valid point. A lot of shooters just want to go shoot, aren't fixated by their world standings but want to participate at their local club matches and occassional Provincial shoot.

Take Care

Bob
 
Thank you Sean for working on an extension to the grace period. I think getting it until the end of June is about as good as a could have been hoped for, good work.
 
On behalf of the NEC, you're welcome. As with all things IPSC Canada, it was a discussion amongst the S/Cs and a definite majority that wanted to try for longer, so I did; and the council said yes. Mark, Todd, Ron, Brad, Craig, Mario, Chris and Steve are great people to work with.
 
OK, here is the solution. Don't declare a division on your entry form. The rules state that........"where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to
the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor's equipment." (6.2.5)

Note that 6.2.5.1 does not apply "However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division,

So if I don't declare a division on my entry form the Range Master can judge me to be Standard whereafter I cannot be bumped to Open because I did not declare a division.

"Most closely resembles" is the yardstick by which you are measured. If I'm only 'out' of Standard if my mags are too long I resembe Standard more closely than open as I do not have a Compensator, or optical sights or 'open' class postioning for mags and holster on my belt......

There you go. Problem solved.........:)
 
Onthebeep said:
So if I don't declare a division on my entry form the Range Master can judge me to be Standard whereafter I cannot be bumped to Open because I did not declare a division.
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He can also declare you to be in revolver class according to that logic as well.....

but.

He can't declare you to be in a class that your equipment does not qualify for.
 
126 sti

Short question for Sean
Will the pinned 126 mags be be IPSC box legal with out Dawson pads?
When I was outside Canada last year I used them but have not put them back on
 
ckc123 said:
He can also declare you to be in revolver class according to that logic as well.....

but.

He can't declare you to be in a class that your equipment does not qualify for.
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The rule is....

"where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to
the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor's equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score."

It is the opinion of the Range Master that counts, there is no stipulation that you have to meet all the criteria for a specific division, merely your equipment 'closely identifies' with the class. So yes, the Range Master can put you into a division that you do not technically qualify for.

Look, there will always be the purists who insist that everyone go out and spend $750 or whatever on new mags to meet the spirit of the new rules but there will also be a number of people who will choose not to shoot because they don't want to or cannot afford new mags. The length of this thread is a testament to the fact that people dont want to do that.

There is a methodology in the rules that would allow people to shoot Standard with long mags and still be 'legal' from an IPSC rules perspective. Yes it will upset some people, yes it is dependant on the ruling of the Range Master but it would allow people to shoot with the equipment they have today and at the end of it all does having a long mag give a competitive advantage? Especially given the wedge shaped 'box legal' mag pads people will put on the Short mags anyways.

Just entering into some healthy debate :nest::p
 
Interesting but I'll tell you how this plays out...

If you have 140mm mags...and you have not declared a Division...the RM will examine your equipment...and put you in Open.

If you leave the match and don't declare a Division (it does happen on occasion) then you are automaticlly in Open.

I sympatize with anyone that has to go out and spend a hundreds on new mags...but we will not pick and choose what rules we follow...where would it stop??

Cheers
Craig
 
Craig,

Technically you are following the rules :p

I think it's a shame but we will see people drop out of the sport because of this unless we can find a way to allow the 'recreational' competitor to continue without shelling out.

From a personal point of view when I purchased my IPSC rig (STI Edge) I asked around about the box legal mags and was advised that 140mm was the way to go as no-one bothered with the 126mm mags due to the exemption. I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat.

For the casual competitor who makes up a large proportion of the participants at club matches a new set of mags is a big expense that may tip the ballance against continuing in the sport.

That or we'll see a lot of people saying 'screw it' and shooting in open........:runaway:
 
Same argument...

Shooter comes to the match with a CZ / Tanfoglio / Baby Eagle / whatever. The catch? He has a 2 lb trigger pull. Would you leave him in production division?

Different shooter comes to the match with a magazine well, but a 6 lb trigger. Again, his gear most closely matches Production Division. Would you leave him there?

Another shooter comes to the line, gun in full compliance with production division, but he has 1 mag pouch forward of the hip bone. Still Production Division?

It's the RO's duty to bump a competitor into the appropriate division if his/her equipment is not in compliance with the rulebook, regardless of what division the Match Director / Range Master placed him/her in.
 
Onthebeep said:
For the casual competitor who makes up a large proportion of the participants at club matches a new set of mags is a big expense that may tip the ballance against continuing in the sport.

That or we'll see a lot of people saying 'screw it' and shooting in open........:runaway:
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Ok, I gotta comment on that....bull.

I do sympathize with people having to change equipment. Naturally, I brought the concern that it would chase away shooters to the IPSC execs in hopes that would be grounds to extend the exemption. They obviously didn't consider that enough.

So now that we're going to be stuck with the rule book in 5 months, let's get down to the nitty gritty. The people this affects and the reality of it:

Double Stack Shooters:
Paras: - Your Viper or MAS bases are too long. Off to the grinder and belt sander. Problem fixed.

2011 frames: You can still shoot in the US with the 140s - which is the primary reason you got them, (That's what most of you said when I tried to talk you into 126s 'cause 140s are more difficult to reload than 126s - am I wrong? Ask the guy in front of me at the nationals trophy line.) You have to either use Josko's system to shorten them or get new tubes and bases. Tubes and bases are about $80 ea. 5 of 'em - $400. Are you going to tell me you're going to discard the Edge that you spent $2K plus for (or the Infinity you got nailed $3K plus for) and a rig that's worth over $500 over $400 worth of mags you have to get over the next 6 months? You're going to give up going to matches that cost you $300+ for gas, entry, food, hotels, etc. over $400 worth of mags? Bull.

You can even Ebay the 140s you have now into the USA...I'm sure with Obama Mania - people are dying to stock up before they get thier ban.

Tanfoglio Shooters: You were all "box compliant" all the time. You have nothing to complain about.

Single Stack Shooters:
You're now down to 8+1 in capacity from 10+1. You weren't beating anyone good with these guns in the first place. Either shoot with the capacity handicap (that went along with the single stack handicap) or consider this a good time to upgrade to a competitive gun.

Yeah, this is going to be an unpopular post, but reality is usually a hard pill to swallow. This had to be said.

We (IPSC Canada) applied for an extension. We were turned down - there's no route for appeal. We considered our options, weighing possible repercussions. We chose not to take those options for the better good of IPSC and handgun shooting sports in Canada - want details? Talk with your SC.

It's over. Move on. If you put the amount of energy into shooting that you're putting into all this #####ing and moaning, IPSC Canada would be able to field a winning team at the World Shoot.
 
hungrybeagle said:
Same argument...

Shooter comes to the match with a CZ / Tanfoglio / Baby Eagle / whatever. The catch? He has a 2 lb trigger pull. Would you leave him in production division?

Different shooter comes to the match with a magazine well, but a 6 lb trigger. Again, his gear most closely matches Production Division. Would you leave him there?

Another shooter comes to the line, gun in full compliance with production division, but he has 1 mag pouch forward of the hip bone. Still Production Division?

It's the RO's duty to bump a competitor into the appropriate division if his/her equipment is not in compliance with the rulebook, regardless of what division the Match Director / Range Master placed him/her in.
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he gets it we all get it ... I think what he's saying if the only "out of division" piece of equipment are the 140mm mags .. The RM could at his discretion keep them in standard... but then it defeats the whole purpose of having rules etc.. then u need to get the word out that that's what we are doing unofficially.. could lose status... RO creed etc... just bad idea... As Madness was saying couldn't we just create a new division for our 140mm players... or even better Like Madness suggested a USPSA Limited type carry your equipment anywhere u want with 140mm mags division of course without the hi-cap allowance...
 
Freedom Ventures said:
.... You're going to give up going to matches that cost you $300+ for gas, entry, food, hotels, etc. over $400 worth of mags? Bull.
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Truth be told I was a die hard IPSC member (took weekend R.O. course 3 hrs away) Local club league director... helped as often as I could R.O. matches at home club and other clubs...travelled 3+ hours almost weekly to LVL II matches after working a full midnight shift...and I did give up for less (new classification system) so it's not so much bull but real tipping point for some...but in my mind it is what it is valid or not... truth be told no one has missed me ... but I miss the sport but Like you said there is always USPSA..
 
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