How many in a group size??

I

Ian Robertson

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I was at the shot show and a wannabe sniper rifle guy had a group his rifle had shot. It was fifty shot and although I don't think it was anything special at least he had the concept correct. Without doubt the more shots in a group the bigger it gets.

Okay, three shots is a joke, five is funny and ten is humorous. Twenty is getting serious and fifty is about right especially if it is shot over a number of days with ALL shots out of the gun to count.

This may have to wait until summer but who has the nerve to do this? Who wants to help come up with the rules? Perhaps it should be shot on the ISU target @ 300m (further is okay with me) for score because hitting the target is more meaningful than a group size.

Man, this would separate the boys from the wannabes!!
 
I have always subscribed to a group of 3 and measure the center of the two furthest holes to arrive at my group size, some guys do 5
 
Well, in F-Class where you're shooting 20 shot strings, I can't see the value in throwing your faith behind a 5 shot group.

However, depending on what method you use to load develop, if it won't put two shots together, what's the point in firing 18 more?

For a hunting rifle, I don't think it would be capable of shooting that many shots in close succession, so I would be happy if it could group with two.

But its like... do I measure my winky from the top or the bottom? what is the accepted standard? I don't know.
 
i know when we were shooting competitively with the cadet program, we were doing 5 shot groupings and the measurement was taken from the farthest edge to farthest edge.
 
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Agree...Aggregates will prove both rifle,reload and shooter skills.
Hate seeing articles in some "shooting mags" that utilize low volume data and questionable methodology.
A Benchrest Group Match provides the 50 round for group average at yardage 100 or 200 usually but doesn't include sighters in score.
Not everyone has access to 300 plus yards on a reg basis.
Are you thinking a 1 day postal match or something extending over the summer months? Maybe a 5 separate day, averages out conditions (5 visits to a range over the summer) 10 rounds on score target ,same target (use a BR 100 yrd score target) 2 sighters on lower sighter .
dated ,time and weather notes for each visit listed on target .
End result 50 on score & 10 on sighters with 5 separate days conditions.
You host the "wailing wall" at the shop till end of summer (deadlined)
Question -classes? LV,HV,Fclass,Hunter???
$5.00 entry fee ???Admin costs...Targets mailed to you by deadline.
Robertson Stock prizes???:)
How about a group/score 900m match at NCRRA??
Just some thoughts.
Gord
ADDED: I assume we are talking target style rifles NOT pencil barreled real world hunters.
 
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Funny - I thought somewhere in Hatcher's Notebook there was a reference to number of rounds required to establish accuracy for military acceptance -- can't find it though. There is a picture of a couple of 10 round groups fired for Palma match ammunition. But this ammunition was selected from test "lots' with an unspecified number of rounds...what do the Palma folks think is a representative sample to judge ammunition/rifle accuracy...before the leade starts to erode??
 
After how many rds do we start measuring:

-the shooters ability to shoot/concentrate/see?

-consistency of conditions?

-Or heat tolerance of a barrel and load?

Are we concerned with pure mechanical accuracy or some combo of shooters skill and rifle?

What about scope mag? Should we put a min/max on magnification? Quality of optics? reticle and target style? Amount of mirage? % of humidity? Angle and location of sun?

Then do we also standardise rest styles, bench styles, bag styles, stock styles.

Etc, ETc, ETC......

I believe that if a rifle/shooter can accomplish the goal of that combination, it is accurate enough for the task.

And since each task requires different goals, there can never be one standard.

I compete in F class and that requires me to hold 1/2 min for as many rds as needed which could be as many as 25rds in a relay. Some of that will be my ability to adjust my POA for changing conditions. Some will be my rifles ability to deliver those rds where I expect when it gets a wee bit toasty.

I really don't think a deer hunter needs to worry about that level of firepower.

A varminter might.....YMMV.
Jerry
 
My opinion

it ALL hinges on the disipline one is shooting.


The disciplines are similar but yet so different.

The bottom line is there is NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING more accurate than a 6PPC in the 100/200 yard benchrest game of group shooting. In score the 30 BR is starting to take over because of the larger hole but with it comes the little bit extra taht us small caliber shooters DO NOT LIKE.

Tru test would be to take the most accurate cartridge for a given discipline and fire it at the given distance for that discipline and see from there. Fire the required shots that would make up the agg. In shortrange that would be 25 record shots per yardage per weight class.

Just a thought.
 
cycbb486
Not quite the best, the deuce holds the record at 100 shot some time ago.
and I watch a guy shoot a 223 rem with a 1/7 twist with 80gr bullets that any 6ppc shooter want to be on his toes or he would come second.100y .200"x5
300x5 .600 and he shot 3 groups uner 1" at 300 best being .600
Maybe the deuce mini mag is making a come back ??

Single Groups


Unlimited


Heavy Varmint


Light Varmint


Sporter


Hunter



5-100
0.050 inches

Ed Watson

3/9/1985
0.027 inches

Ralph Landon

9/13/1975
0.009 inches 222REm

Mac MacMillian

9/23/1973
0.041 inches 222 Rem

Jerry Thornbrugh

10/21/1978
 
when i shot cross-the-course, I would always prove loads by shooting a 22 shot group in the same time frame as the rifle and load would be tested in competition.
 
I guess the number of rounds in a group should be determined by what it is you intend to measure. Let's assume you want to measure the accuracy of a big game rifle or load. The 3 shot group provides more information than does a 5 round or 50 round group, because you want to know where the cold bore shot hits in relation to the two follow up shots, and the hunter's problem is normally solved within 3 shots. If the rifle and load can produce consistent 3 shot groups over a period of hours, days, weeks , months and years; you have a winner. An often overlooked question pertinent to the big game rifle is the range at which this 3 shot group is fired. Too many hunters shoot a 1" 3 shot group off the bench and head to the field confident in the knowledge that any target within 500 yards is duck soup. Riflemen know it ain't so.

The military rifle might very well have to fire thousands of rounds between cleanings that will remove all jacket fouling from the bore. Also the rifle is required to meet a minimum accuracy requirement without allowing the barrel time to cool. For these reasons a large round count provides better information pertaining to accuracy and cycling than would a lesser number of rounds. The military sniper rifle that can put a cold barrel shot within 1/2 MOA after 500 rounds, or that can put the 50th shot from a hot barrel within 1 MOA is the one you want to issue your soldiers.

Between these two extremes is the precision game. These folks are the accuracy nuts, competitors, and long range varmint hunters all interested in the smallest group size possible at any given range within their particular genre. Quarter minute rifles are a minimum requirement, but for the most part shot strings on a given target tend to be short, although a large number of rounds can be fired on a given day.
 
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I don't think groups from a single session matter, no matter how big... If someone can show me a few 5 or 10 shot groups from separate sessions, then I'll get a good idea of how they can shoot on average because everyone has good days and bad days.
 
Ian Robertson said:
Twenty is getting serious and fifty is about right especially if it is shot over a number of days with ALL shots out of the gun to count.
Click to expand...

OK....so a guy goes out and shoots a 50 shot group and posts it up here. Then some internet hero will come along and say "Well.....not bad for a 50 shot group, but if you had a 100 shot group, that would REALLY show what the gun can do"

Someone posts up a 3 shot group, internet hero wants 5. Shooter posts up a 5 shot group, internet hero wants to see 10.

It's never ending.

If the group YOU shoot gives YOU enough feedback that YOU are happy.....#### the rest.
 
Both CBA benchrest and Nbrsa use 5 and 10 shot groups for the most part, that is good enough for me, except hunting rifles where a 3 shot group is more telling.
 
Come on Ian,
Ya gotta jump in and stir up some more.
How bout we get those Red Star targets (remember from the carnivals with the machine gun bb guns )
and count the number of shots to shoot ALL the red star out.
I always managed to leave some fleck of red on it and NEVER won a damn thing.Spent entire months allowance tryin once.
Whatever ,but it's gotta be fun!
 
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