German 308 surplus

A test is coming as soon as I can get out. I'm a bit paranoid about using a bullet with a "mild steel jacket" in one of my rifles meant for precision work because 1. It's "cheap" surplus, and 2., Are conventional cleaners effective with steel jackets as they are with copper ones?? So, I haven't tried it yet in this rifle.
I've found an acquaintance who has a springfield M1- A, I'll see if we can get a test result out soon.
Heil to superior German ammo!
 
Extra info Re: the German AB-22 Bullet on this ammo as noted previusly

This bullet has a distinct silver color (the steel jacket). WARNING: These will have no effect on werewolves, as these really aren't made of silver:).
The base of the bullet has a brass colored plug (?). The jacket must be a mild steel as I was able to cut off the tip of the bullet with the wirecutter part of my pliers. I did this to examine the core, which is lead.
One question is raised: All/most cleaning products are designed for copper jacketed/tombac bullets, so are special cleaners needed ? (I've never heard of any), or do conventional cleaning agents cover "mild steel" jackets as well?

The steel is covered in cupro nickle. The nickle can be difficult to remove, back in the old DCRA days there was alot of 303 ammo with nickled bullets, and there were special solvents to revove it.
 
The steel is covered in cupro nickle. The nickle can be difficult to remove, back in the old DCRA days there was alot of 303 ammo with nickled bullets, and there were special solvents to revove it.

Good observation! This simply didn't occur to me. The definition of "cupro-nickel" from the Sierra 50th Anniversary Reloading Manual: ".An alloy of Copper-Nickel, aka "German Silver"....once used extensively as a jacket material despite a serious tendency to leave metal fouling in the barrel. In the US, it has been replaced almost entirely by gilding metal" Gilding metal=95% copper/5% zinc alloy.


Doing some preliminary web research seems to indicate that the old "28% ammonia treatment" was used to deal with the nickel particles that accumulated in the old days. A very effective cleaning method, but required a meticulous application and a big mess with high potential of chemically damaging all parts of your rifle.

Glancing thru catalogs, all cleaners I've seen indicate they work with copper/powder fouling, but none mention "cupro-nickel" fouling! Although I did find (via internet search) one or two modern cleaners that also claim to deal with this type of fouling as well (thankfully).

The Germans used "Ballistol" as their cleaner in WWI and WWII, (a great multi-use agent BTW) the Ballistol sold today makes no mention of this specific type of fouling. I know it works with copper from experience, one would think it'd be approved for "German" bullets such as this.
This German surplus is dated mid 1990's. Why are/did the Germans still making cupro-nickel bullets if the above fouling is such an issue?
 
so has anyone heard any recent news from this mysterious ammo supplier ...... I'd like to order up a case or five hehehe
 
so has anyone heard any recent news from this mysterious ammo supplier ...... I'd like to order up a case or five hehehe

Unfortunately not.:( When it appeared in the US it all sold out in approx 8 -12 weeks. The amount that made it's way here was gone by late November. One can only hope some more willl appear. Ever notice how we (in Kanada) can never get surplus ammo from the same country twice in a row? Except maybe China, but even this hasn't happened recently.
 
A test is coming as soon as I can get out. I'm a bit paranoid about using a bullet with a "mild steel jacket" in one of my rifles meant for precision work because 1. It's "cheap" surplus, and 2., Are conventional cleaners effective with steel jackets as they are with copper ones?? So, I haven't tried it yet in this rifle.
I've found an acquaintance who has a springfield M1- A, I'll see if we can get a test result out soon.
Heil to superior German ammo!

Well, get to it then!:) I want to know how this stuff'll work in one of the more common self shuckers!!!!!!
 
Well, get to it then!:) I want to know how this stuff'll work in one of the more common self shuckers!!!!!!

O.K., O.K!.....patience, my son, is a virtue:) I've been working in "the blast furnace" and was gone for a short time. I finally have arrangements to test this stuff with the M1-A set to go. Then we can finally close this thread unless any more news comes in.
 
Well, get to it then!:) I want to know how this stuff'll work in one of the more common self shuckers!!!!!!

Let's try this again:confused:...(attempted posting earlier with no success).

Finally got together with the Springfield National Match M1-A rifle/owner. I found a cleaner that claimed effectiveness with cupro-nickel bullets, so off we went (I had to do the rifle cleaning:() The owner had this rifle "skim" bedded and wanted to test it with his "sniper" load, during which we'd test the German surplus at the same time.

One downfall of this sniper system was it's fairly periodic requirement for rebedding (a real maintenance hassle, which is one reason why it was dropped as a sniping system). It's made a comeback due to the War(s) but is being replaced by more durable/modern systems.


Conditions: 15-20 kph wind, 10 0'clock direction, Temp approx -10 C.
All groups are 3 shots, bipod front support, sandbag rear. 100 meters IRON sights.

First, the "control"/Sniper" load group with the ammo of known accuracy was .78". Looks like that bedding job is fine!
The German ammo grouped 1. 3.56" (2 shots in 1", 1 flyer). 2. 1.35" 3. 2.3" 4. 2.8" 5. 3.25" Average= 2.65". Definately not as good as seen with previous rifles on this thread. I thought that maybe my aging eyes may be a factor in these worsening groups, so I shot another group with the "control" ammo and got .51"!

A note on cleaning: A websearch found a cleaner claiming effectiveness on cupro-nickel jacketed bullets on a UK website. Although no mention of this is made on the label of the product. A call to the US distributor confirmed the website claim, so I picked up some "Wipe-Out" and "wipe-out accelerator" (a chemical catalyst that makes it work quicker) from a local dealer.

This stuff is a foam-type cleaner that resembles the bubbles from dishwashing soap (and even smells like it). Very messy. It "foamed" outside the bore (despite closing the bore to prevent this from going onto the bedding/into the action). I don't like having potentially toxic chemicals all over the place, the more containment the better. SIDEBAR: I wonder if gun owners get more certain types of cancers than the general population because of our exposure to various solvents. Something we should watch out for!

Anyway, it SEEMED to work in the above rifle. BUT, I used this cleaner in another rifle and I decided to check afterwards by following up with one of my normal cleaners. Lo and behold, patches came out black/dark grey when according to previous instruction, the bore should have been clean. Beware.
 
I pulled the issue bullet and put on a 150 gr flat based hunting bullet (as a budget deer load/ammo, original powder charge, as you suggested Zupermann. Got 3 shot groups averaging .9" from my Steyr hunting rifle with 12X scope--100 yds.

I'm gonna manipulate the powder/chronograph loads for heavier bullets for bear, moose etc.,

Incidentally, what was that amazing "control" sniper load that you guys fired in that M1-A above?

I saw in Shotgun News that German "training" ammo (plastic projectile) for 300m (and closer) use is in the US....I wonder if any will get here. It doesn't cycle semis but maybe the components/brass can be used.

PS: Next time you go to Iraq, can you bring me a souvenir ? :wave:
 
The "control" load is one I made up from some Spanish (Santa Barbara) 308 surplus that was widely available approx. 15 years ago. You'll cry when I mention this, but it was being sold for as low as $200/1000 rds at the time, although $250 was more the going rate.

It didn't have the NATO "cross" mark on it. Apparently it wasn't as "hot" as the standard NATO stuff as it was supposedly for use in some of Spain's older rifles. I basically "mexican-matched" this stuff ( pulled the old bullet off and seated a 155 gr Sierra Palma with a competition seater). I molycoated it as a theoretical precaution to help keep pressures low (as there was/is a slight difference in bullet weights/bearing surface). This stuff has worked very well in all my rifles to date, and when I was using it, won a number of local competitions with it, both with semis and bolt actions.

I traded the remaining surplus bunch away:( to various acqaintances over the years. It still see it at gunshows/estate sales however, so if you get a chance, pick some up!

I will be going to Kurdistan (part of Iraq, but really should be it's own country--nice people!) very soon. Lots of silver and gold plated firearms there:confused: I have no idea if I can or if its possible to import one.
For you, how about a used sputum pan or chamberpot:)?? Actually, some of them are quite ornate complete with silver plating/gold inlays!! I'll be back in 10-14 days!!
 
It didn't have the NATO cross mark on it...it wasn't as "hot" as the standard NATO stuff

Just goes to show that the fastest loads aren't usually the most accurate
For you, how about a used sputum pan or chamberpot?

When I clean/rub them, maybe a nice genie will appear! Then you'll be sorry!
 
Just goes to show that the fastest loads aren't usually the most accurate

Yes, too many people get sucked into the "power/velocity" game! Either young guys who don't know any better, or older guys who should know better!:).
I can see an argument for long range, but what good is velocity when you don't have accuracy? Does a deer etc. know the difference between getting hit at 2700fps versus 2900 fps?
Well, this thread is about done....Thanks everyone for viewing in!:cheers:
 
UPDATE: This ammo is back in the USA. I saw it being advertised there. We can only hope an enterprising person or business can get a hold of some of this here.
 
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I see that there's that Portugeuse 7.62 x 51 back on the US market as well. As you know, this stuff has been (approved) and sold here in Kanada in the past by outfits like Districorp. Hmmmmm.....would some be coming here perhaps?
 
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