Basically, I'm asking the experts, what model of rifle my grandfather most likely carried while in Italy? I think he arrived in 1944. My guess is a Longbranch Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk1*. Whatever he carried will be my first purchase.
Rifles carried in Italy by the Canadian Infantry?
- Thread starter Big Mozza
- Start date
Late Italy
Keep an eye out for a nice 1942 or 1943 Long Branch No4 with a 2 groove barrel, flip 300/600 battle sights and perhaps a serrated hand guard....probably one from this early/middle production would be right for later in the Italian campaign when your Grandfather served.
In my opinion either Walnut or Maple stocks could have been encountered....that's a matter of choice.
Perhaps as a matter of History one of our better educated Historians could advise if some, or all of the Canadians actually entered the early 1st phase of the Sicily/Italy campaign with No1mk111's...or perhaps there was a mix with the No4's coming in to service?
Cheers Paul
Keep an eye out for a nice 1942 or 1943 Long Branch No4 with a 2 groove barrel, flip 300/600 battle sights and perhaps a serrated hand guard....probably one from this early/middle production would be right for later in the Italian campaign when your Grandfather served.
In my opinion either Walnut or Maple stocks could have been encountered....that's a matter of choice.
Perhaps as a matter of History one of our better educated Historians could advise if some, or all of the Canadians actually entered the early 1st phase of the Sicily/Italy campaign with No1mk111's...or perhaps there was a mix with the No4's coming in to service?
Cheers Paul
- Location
- WMU248 near Edmonton
I thought that they went into Italy with No1MkIII* as there still was not enough No4 rifles in the system to properly equip them. Also I think they went with thompsons and 1911 to simplify the ammo logistics.
I ma be wrong, that happens from time to time.
I ma be wrong, that happens from time to time.
"...thought that they went into Italy with No1 MkIII*..." Nope. Not in Sicily either. No. 4's only. No. 1's were used by Canadian Home Guard though.
"...to simplify the ammo logistics..." No U.S. logistics for 1st Canadian Div or 8th Army. Thompsons were used, but mostly STEN's.
"...to simplify the ammo logistics..." No U.S. logistics for 1st Canadian Div or 8th Army. Thompsons were used, but mostly STEN's.
MapleSugar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- On the loose from NIMH
BS, read "The Regiment" by Farley Mowat.
I can't recall what rifle the Hasty P's carried, but I do know they carried the Thompson in Sicily and Italy, and didn't see a Sten until they got to Western Europe.
The battle-weary Canadian troops in Italy ended up just basically holding the Germans in check, while the build-up to the Normandy landings went on in England.
They had scant equipment, as the bulk of supplies and reinforcements were going to England, and then France.
When Private Ernest Smith (VC) saved the bridgehead over the River Savio in 1944, he was carrying a Thompson, and a P.I.A.T. He credits the Thompson with saving his life when the German troops counter-attacked. The P.I.A.T. he didn't have much use for (he wanted to be able to carry captured Panzerfaust's with them, but was denied.)
http://www.canuck.freehosting.net/sten.htm
http://www.cmhg-phmc.gc.ca/html/gl-ga/index-eng.asp?t=&letter=S&page=4
Farley Mowat mentions that he carried a .38 revolver ashore in Sicily; this was probably the Smith & Wesson Victory model in .380 (.38 S&W). Very few, if any, Inglis Browning 9mm HP's got to Italy before the Canadian troops were moved to NorthWest Europe in early 1945. The Thompson was used and liked by Canadians in Italy, and the Loyal Edmonton Regiment Museum in Edmonton notes that some Canadians acquired 1911A1 pistols, which of course used the .45 ACP round of the Thompson. Lee-Enfield No.4 rifles were issued to Canadian troops in time for Sicily, while other Commonwealth troops used the No.1 Mk.III.
No 4's for the rifle.
Enfield, Colt or S&W 38's for pistol's
Thompson's for SMG
Bren's for a LMG.
Vickers for a L-MMG
Some M2's if they could get them. Dad mounted one on his Bren Gun Carrier.
PIAT for an AT weapon
My Dad served in the Italian campaign.
LER
Many of them carried Italian pistols mostly in 380
Lots of them carried German rifles either Kar 98's or GEW's, MP38's and 40's, were also prefered especially in Ortona.
The First Div troops looked more like a bunch of Partisan's than Canadian or 8th Army troops, many prefered Parachute helemts as opposed to the classic tommy helmet.
When the 1st and 5th Div's got pulled out of Italy at the end of 44(early 45), they had to give up all their liberated item's. My Dad gave up many Berreta 380's and a few other choice items.
FWIW, my Dad hated the STEN, worst bloody weapon he had ever used, saw more than one fellow get an AD from the STEN getting dropped while cocked.
Enfield, Colt or S&W 38's for pistol's
Thompson's for SMG
Bren's for a LMG.
Vickers for a L-MMG
Some M2's if they could get them. Dad mounted one on his Bren Gun Carrier.
PIAT for an AT weapon
My Dad served in the Italian campaign.
LER
Many of them carried Italian pistols mostly in 380
Lots of them carried German rifles either Kar 98's or GEW's, MP38's and 40's, were also prefered especially in Ortona.
The First Div troops looked more like a bunch of Partisan's than Canadian or 8th Army troops, many prefered Parachute helemts as opposed to the classic tommy helmet.
When the 1st and 5th Div's got pulled out of Italy at the end of 44(early 45), they had to give up all their liberated item's. My Dad gave up many Berreta 380's and a few other choice items.
FWIW, my Dad hated the STEN, worst bloody weapon he had ever used, saw more than one fellow get an AD from the STEN getting dropped while cocked.
Wow- Canadian troops discarded Canadian made Long Branch No 4's for German Mausers???
Why?
Interesting post!
Why?
Interesting post!
You know not ever person has kind words for a rimmed cartridge being fired out of a bolt rifle with a single point rear locking lug.
Some fellows recognized the fine workman ship in a Mauser 98, and heck 8mm ammo was pretty easy to come by too.
O'Kelly's Boys
Regular
- Location
- Grande Prairie
Lefty ####,
What is your reference to support the fact that 1st Canadian Div soldiers carried captured German wpns? Is there a Regt history perhaps? Was it because there was such a shortage of Canadian wpns/ammo that 1st Div soldiers had to resort to using captured German small arms or that they preferred to and were permitted to do so. Interesting statement.
Captured pistols are easy to hide, they're a trophy though, not your primary wpn.
I believe that Canadian leadership permitted a certain amount of variation with regard to wpns use, I just don't know much about the use of captured stuff. I have spoken with vets from the LSR (M) mech inf in NW Europe 44-45 and seen plenty of photos. They mounted 50 cals on their universal carriers and multiple 30s and 50s on their half-tracks. Their carriers looked crazy with all the machine guns and gear hanging off them.
Let us know.
Cheers,
O'Kelly's Boys
What is your reference to support the fact that 1st Canadian Div soldiers carried captured German wpns? Is there a Regt history perhaps? Was it because there was such a shortage of Canadian wpns/ammo that 1st Div soldiers had to resort to using captured German small arms or that they preferred to and were permitted to do so. Interesting statement.
Captured pistols are easy to hide, they're a trophy though, not your primary wpn.
I believe that Canadian leadership permitted a certain amount of variation with regard to wpns use, I just don't know much about the use of captured stuff. I have spoken with vets from the LSR (M) mech inf in NW Europe 44-45 and seen plenty of photos. They mounted 50 cals on their universal carriers and multiple 30s and 50s on their half-tracks. Their carriers looked crazy with all the machine guns and gear hanging off them.
Let us know.
Cheers,
O'Kelly's Boys
I can't say one way or the other what soldiers did in Italy. I can remember some of the stories my uncle told of captured weapons and gear in North Africa.
When they captured any real quantities, they were policed into large piles and burned. They kept the stuff that was easy to carry, like food, blankets and tents as well as 8mm ammunition for their BESA machine guns. Everything else was destroyed. He said they were already so loaded down that souvenirs were not usually bothered with, unless it was going to come in handy saving your life. Otherwise it was just to darned heavy to lug around. He said they even destroyed captured enemy supplies when their own issue stuff was in short supply. Once the Stens appeared on the scene though, they scrounged all of the 9mm they could. They didn't love the Sten, but found it effective in tight fights in towns and the bush country.
It was also considered to be very poor ettiquette to rob the dead by either side and anyone displaying captured momentos, such as rings or other adornments was dispatched with enthusiasm in surrender situations by all sides. Arms, food, fuel, tobacco, medication and blankets were a different story, they all understood survival and stess.
He was one of the late comers to Italy and mostly did mop up work after the North African stint. He had been wounded and was reassigned to his unit after the real dirty work was done. He thanked GOD for that little blessing of getting a bullet through the rear of his thigh when he did. He didn't appreciate it until later though.
If the Canadians used captured weapons in Italy, there may have been very good reasons for it. As mentioned above, lack of their own equipment, or in the case of specialised arms, such as sniper rifles (always in short supply) or machine guns (again always in short supply). They also had strict orders not to fool around with captured supplies, much of it was booby trapped. When they ran into the first panzerfausts, they of course had to "play" a little as they did with rifles, sub guns, machine guns and pistols. They did this to compare the equipment with their own. For the most part, they preferred their own, mostly because they were familiar with them and they really liked the 10 round mags on the Lee Enfields. They did keep a few panzerfausts hidden though. They were the best available weapon available for what they were designed to do and they were always easy to find, right until the end of and after the war. It seems the germans gave them out to everyone that could carry them.
They all had a very healthy respect for german artillery and tanks as well as most of their motorised equipment. They weren't nearly as enamored by the Italian equipment. He did state though that the Italians weren't nearly the push overs they were reputed to be. They mostly just had enough of the war by the time he got to them. He also said that the Italian rifleman wasn't anyone you wanted to willingly expose yourself to out to several hundred yards. The Italians were well trained in marksmanship and proved themselves on the battlefield many times as competent and formidable foes. The Italians really suffered from a lack of supplies and out dated armor and artillery. Darned good soldiers though. Many of them fought hard, knowing full well that they had little or no chance of victory. Many died rather than surrender. We don't hear very many stories about that though.
When they captured any real quantities, they were policed into large piles and burned. They kept the stuff that was easy to carry, like food, blankets and tents as well as 8mm ammunition for their BESA machine guns. Everything else was destroyed. He said they were already so loaded down that souvenirs were not usually bothered with, unless it was going to come in handy saving your life. Otherwise it was just to darned heavy to lug around. He said they even destroyed captured enemy supplies when their own issue stuff was in short supply. Once the Stens appeared on the scene though, they scrounged all of the 9mm they could. They didn't love the Sten, but found it effective in tight fights in towns and the bush country.
It was also considered to be very poor ettiquette to rob the dead by either side and anyone displaying captured momentos, such as rings or other adornments was dispatched with enthusiasm in surrender situations by all sides. Arms, food, fuel, tobacco, medication and blankets were a different story, they all understood survival and stess.
He was one of the late comers to Italy and mostly did mop up work after the North African stint. He had been wounded and was reassigned to his unit after the real dirty work was done. He thanked GOD for that little blessing of getting a bullet through the rear of his thigh when he did. He didn't appreciate it until later though.
If the Canadians used captured weapons in Italy, there may have been very good reasons for it. As mentioned above, lack of their own equipment, or in the case of specialised arms, such as sniper rifles (always in short supply) or machine guns (again always in short supply). They also had strict orders not to fool around with captured supplies, much of it was booby trapped. When they ran into the first panzerfausts, they of course had to "play" a little as they did with rifles, sub guns, machine guns and pistols. They did this to compare the equipment with their own. For the most part, they preferred their own, mostly because they were familiar with them and they really liked the 10 round mags on the Lee Enfields. They did keep a few panzerfausts hidden though. They were the best available weapon available for what they were designed to do and they were always easy to find, right until the end of and after the war. It seems the germans gave them out to everyone that could carry them.
They all had a very healthy respect for german artillery and tanks as well as most of their motorised equipment. They weren't nearly as enamored by the Italian equipment. He did state though that the Italians weren't nearly the push overs they were reputed to be. They mostly just had enough of the war by the time he got to them. He also said that the Italian rifleman wasn't anyone you wanted to willingly expose yourself to out to several hundred yards. The Italians were well trained in marksmanship and proved themselves on the battlefield many times as competent and formidable foes. The Italians really suffered from a lack of supplies and out dated armor and artillery. Darned good soldiers though. Many of them fought hard, knowing full well that they had little or no chance of victory. Many died rather than surrender. We don't hear very many stories about that though.
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Thanks for all the info guys - there is obviously a tonne of knowledge in these forums. I surmise that my original guess was right - The basic rifle carried by an infantryman in Italy was a Longbranch Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk1*. I will be on the hunt for one of these.
My grandfather, arrived in Italy on the RMS Queen Elizabeth (sister ship to the original Queen Mary). He saw only about 12 hours of fighting on the front lines, but it was enough that he never spoke about the war - ever. When he was safely back from the front he received his golden ticket home. An accidental discharge from a fellow Canadian soldier, who was cleaning his rifle, struck him in the a$$. Thank goodness or I might have never been born. He spent a month on his stomach in a French hospital and was sent back to Canada. As punishment for accidentally shooting Grandpa in the rear, the other soldier had to carry his pack and Grandpa's around for a week. Its a bit of a goofy story now, but that was part of my family's history with WWII.
My grandfather, arrived in Italy on the RMS Queen Elizabeth (sister ship to the original Queen Mary). He saw only about 12 hours of fighting on the front lines, but it was enough that he never spoke about the war - ever. When he was safely back from the front he received his golden ticket home. An accidental discharge from a fellow Canadian soldier, who was cleaning his rifle, struck him in the a$$. Thank goodness or I might have never been born. He spent a month on his stomach in a French hospital and was sent back to Canada. As punishment for accidentally shooting Grandpa in the rear, the other soldier had to carry his pack and Grandpa's around for a week. Its a bit of a goofy story now, but that was part of my family's history with WWII.
Were Cdn. troops invariably issued LB made rifles, or Inglis made Brens?
If a unit were equipped in Canada, before going overseas, it would make sense that they would be equipped with Cdn. production.
Much of Cdn. production were into the general pool, and was not necessarily issued to Canadians.
If troops were overseas, were Canadian made arms directed to them, or were they supplied with whatever equipment was available through supply channels?
As an example, there are late war photos of Cdn. soldiers with 4T rifles. It would seem that in all photos where the rifle can be accurately identified, they are Mk. I rifles, not Mk. I*. The rifles would have been British made.
One Vet. I knew did not appreciate turning in his SMLE for a No. 4. He also quite liked the Mannlicher Carcano rifle that he tested. I do not know where or when he exchanged his SMLE for the No. 4, athough it was overseas.
If a unit were equipped in Canada, before going overseas, it would make sense that they would be equipped with Cdn. production.
Much of Cdn. production were into the general pool, and was not necessarily issued to Canadians.
If troops were overseas, were Canadian made arms directed to them, or were they supplied with whatever equipment was available through supply channels?
As an example, there are late war photos of Cdn. soldiers with 4T rifles. It would seem that in all photos where the rifle can be accurately identified, they are Mk. I rifles, not Mk. I*. The rifles would have been British made.
One Vet. I knew did not appreciate turning in his SMLE for a No. 4. He also quite liked the Mannlicher Carcano rifle that he tested. I do not know where or when he exchanged his SMLE for the No. 4, athough it was overseas.
