Revolver for newbies like me?

Aliceminer, if you're within the lower mainland area get over to DVC in Port Coquitlam and try out the range of "rent-a-guns" they have both for revolvers as well as semi pistols. You'll soon figure out if your'e a wheel gun fan or a semi fan. Even if it means doing a day or overnight trip it would be worthwhile if you can combine it with some visiting or shopping. You don't give a location so it's hard to guess where you're located.

If by some chance you're over by the Alberta-BC border it may be shorter to run into Edmonton to hit up TSE where they run a similar indoor shooting center.

As for the Nagant I echo what the others say about it NOT being a good first handgun. I would not even suggest it as a second or third handgun if the goal is to actually get out and shoot a lot. Maybe a fourth but only if you're sure you're ready for an oddity that uses rare and expensive ammo.
 
Aliceminer, if you're within the lower mainland area get over to DVC in Port Coquitlam and try out the range of "rent-a-guns" they have both for revolvers as well as semi pistols. You'll soon figure out if your'e a wheel gun fan or a semi fan. Even if it means doing a day or overnight trip it would be worthwhile if you can combine it with some visiting or shopping. You don't give a location so it's hard to guess where you're located.

If by some chance you're over by the Alberta-BC border it may be shorter to run into Edmonton to hit up TSE where they run a similar indoor shooting center.

As for the Nagant I echo what the others say about it NOT being a good first handgun. I would not even suggest it as a second or third handgun if the goal is to actually get out and shoot a lot. Maybe a fourth but only if you're sure you're ready for an oddity that uses rare and expensive ammo.


Slight correction. TSE is in Calgary. Phoenix and Wild West are in Edmonton. Phoenix has a list of their range guns on their website but I don't believe that it is complete.
 
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http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=43803&isFirearm=Y
How come the price on the site you guys recommend is much more $$$ than the official site?

Price of doing business in Canada is a lot higher. More regulations and the guns cost money to bring into the country. Customs etc etc...

Do you think I should buy guns in USA then ship it to Canada?
Nope, most will not ship it and it will cost you as much if not more to do it. If they are willing to send it to Canada I would not touch that gun with a ten foot pole .
Me, I won't me shooting a lot. I use guns to defend myself.

If you need it for defense I would not be worried about cost I'd be more concerned about the legality of using a gun that way then cost. Plus it does no good to buy a gun for defense you don't practice with please god if you buy a gun to defend yourself practice with.

Course I'm starting to see a similar pattern to other posts I have read. I'd say we have a troll here.
 
Aliceminer, welcome to CGN but, with all due respect, I suspect CompBoy may have a point although sincerely I hope he's wrong.

It would seem from your last post that you may be a complete newbie to the world of guns in general (and possibly quite young?) which is OK- we were all there once :redface: - but to apparently be starting from scratch with a handgun and talk about self-defence in almost the same sentence is a tad worrying, especially since your first post asked about a revolver that is about as far from a useful self-defence weapon as possible.

And even if you do plan "to use guns to defend yourself" (which is an entire other subject unto itself and a very delicate one; defend yourself from what and whom, exactly?), you WILL be shooting a lot- a very great deal, in fact, plus professional training, to acquire the necessary skills (mental and physical, in that order) to be prepared for the .002% chance that you will ever have to stop a home invasion, which is about the only remotely justifiable scenario here in Canada. To quote Col. Jeff Cooper, “Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

Remember there are members of regional police forces and RCMP on CGN, too.

I apologize if I'm getting on your case prematurely. Perhaps you are just showing naïvete rather than foolishness. (And if you ARE a troll, you'll be booted off CGN pretty quickly. :p)

:) Stuart
 
Me, I won't me shooting a lot. I use guns to defend myself.

Oh.... REALLY? Well, my newbie neophite, if you use guns to defend yourself, obviously you already own guns and don't need advice. However if you are merely planning on buying a gun to defend yourself, maybe you should just invest in a good solid tire iron or a baseball bat. Assuming you are serious about buying a handgun, I would suggest buying a good quality .357Mag. You can use .38Spl for practice (which I hope you would do religiously) at the start, then load .38Spl and .357Mag randomly until you feel compfortable with the recoil. Start out with 148gr wadcutters, then graduate to 158gr SWC, then 158gr +P SWC. When you are compfortable with the +P's start in with the 158gr .357mag. A good self defence load is the 140gr Semi Jacketed Hollow Point.
 
From the crazy gangster in Vancouver.
If you have read the news you know how bad it is in Vacouver

Alas, only too true. :( But they seem to be mostly on the street, shooting at each other so far, fortunately, and as you ought to know, you can't carry a handgun in Canada anyway or keep one in the car (unless you're a criminal, of course. Let's not even go there...) So self-defence is pretty well a non-issue. Reality check in order here.

:) Stuart
 
This is so much different from the states. In the states you are allowed to carry handguns if you have ccw permit.
And carrying a combat knife in the states is not illegal.
I guess I have to adopt to the way Canadians think.
Anyways what kind of revolver is good for home defense?
 
again, the double action 357, but legally you can only use it for "target shooting" -there's a reason why the 357 4 inch is a "prohibuted" - the police carried them for years before all this auto nonsense came along- and many a retired cop will tell you that the smith and wesson model 19 4 inch was the best carry gun to come along- so the government pulled up all the green cards, decided we were too "stupid" to have the 4 inch and shorter- and prohibited the lot- it doesn't matter waht gun you have, if it's shorter than 4 inch barrel it's PROHIBITED- you can't get it anyway- thats why those just a hair longer than 4 inch gp100s are selling so well-
the reason the cops went to automatics is b/c the crooks were showing up with guns with more firepower( ie 15 shot) guns and they HAD TO FOLLOW SUIT- now everybody and his dog has one- just take a look at the time before the auto became popular- the only autos were"army " guns- the 1911, the p-38, and the luger, or variations of them- all 7 or 9 shots, with the exception of the p35 browning high power
as for a knife, there is only one- the buck 184- now that's a KNIFE
 
Aliceminer: The troll comments are because your questions display a lack of understanding of self-defense laws and firearms laws in Canada. We are not sure if you are just new or young or both, or perhaps maybe you are a journalist, LEO, Ryerson University professor or PHD student trying to entrap someone into saying something illegal. No offense, but your questions demonstrate that you should be reading more than posting.

In an affort to answer your questions:

1) Revolver for a newbie: Get the Ruger GP 100. Cheaper than a 686 and stronger design. This is the gold standard of handguns built like a tank. You will not outgrow it. It is good for PPC competition, Double action, lots of accessories like grips and speedloaders and spring kits. Slightly stronger than the 686 and much cheaper. I love 'em so much I own 2 with a 6" barrel. Simple mechanism that is easy to manipulate and learn on your own.

2) Whatever gun you get, look at the price of ammunition. .38/.357 is good because you can shoot both and whiel .38 is relatively cheap, .357 is powerful which many find more fun. It is the best of both worlds. Keep in mind that your still looking at minimum $20 for a box of 50 rounds and possibly double that depending on your choice of ammo.

3) A big part of the attraction to firearms is reloading your own bullets. This is where you take your old brass cartridge casings and using a press and dies, can replace the primer, refill it with powder and reseat a new bullet so now you can shoot again. The advantage of relaoding is after accounting for the initial expense of the reloading equipment, in the long run it becomes much much cheaper. You can even cast your own lead bullets from old lead commercialy available like wheel weights. The costs drops proportionately the the time and effort you put in to make your own.

4) Read the criminal code of canada and understand it. Study it and learn it well. DO the same for the firearms act and every self defense thread on this forum. Consider consulting a lawyer. If you cannot bother, don't have the time patience or money to do these things, then you are not ready to consider using a gun for self-defense in my opinion. Canada and the US differ like fire and Ice on this subject and you better understand the differences as your life will depend on it. WHile the opinions here are useful, and most members on CGN board are very helpful, you will get blasted a lot when you say something ill informed, or contrary to the public consensus. I laugh when I think of some of my opening threads on the gun registry. (Thanks CGN for helping a recovering liberal :D )

But in no case should you consider the opinions here to be the truth. Read and understand the law. That is what matters. It is all available for free on the web. www.gc.ca will take you to all the relevant sections withing Justice dept, RCMP, NRCan etc... If you do not know how to read and interpret the law, then get a lawyer. If you cannot afford a lawyer then you cannot afford to defend yourself, cause if you do you will need one anyways.

5) No you probably cannot carry a knife. Weapons are illegal. A very small blade fi a tool, may be carried. If a self defense situation arrives, then you may use what is reasonable to defend yourself up to and including lethal force.


Here is my interpretation of a summary of self defense.

- You cannot carry weapons for the purpose of self defense.
- You can under certain circumstances defend yourself with whatever is readily available if you believe that greivous harm is imminent to you or someone else. This may include a gun, assuming you are not already breaking some other gun law. (Storage and Transportation)
- You cannot carry firearms openly except for legal uses. For unrestricted guns, these include hunting, range or target and predator control when rural use. While this is a legal grey area, good luck carrying your shotgun in a city, even if you are just walking to a range. While it is legal, the police can and will charge you with "causing a distrubance" or some such nonsense.

- You cannot carry restricted firearms for anything, but target practice at an authorized range wich you are a member/guest. You may transport for licensed range use only and you must have an Authorization To Transport to make it legal. Only exceptions are for work. LEO, Security, Fur Trappers. Storage and transport laws are super strict and fairly clear on this. You cannot carry a handgun/restricted for self defense even if you believe you are a target of gang members unless you have an ATT or concealed carry permit. Only a few judges and lawyers actually have these. (Yes the hipocrisy is killing me).
- This leaves you with firearms defense against gang members in Vancouver being practicable only in a home defense situation as you were not allowed to have your gun on you anywhere else. In the home ot is feasible, but not easy. Legally your self-defense handgun must either be in storage, in transit, or in use.

Storage: Keep it unloaded, trigger locked and in a safe. There are some pistol safes that can be opend quickly with a little practice. Practice quickly removing your trigger lock and keep a speedloader in the safe with the pistol, and practice loading it for self defense. ( This assumes that you have extensive experience shooting in general and have taken at least one course in defesive handgunning). If not, you're probably better off using a bat.

In transit: Basically the same idea, but if you were carrying your handgun to a range. It must be unloaded, trigger locked and in an opaque lockable container and stored in the trunk of your car, or if no trunk is available it must not be in plain site. You m ust be on the most direct route possible between your home and the range. If you get caught with a gun, even if being properly transported, but you on not on a reasonably direct path between your range and the home the gun is regsitered to your are going to jail. Once this is complied to, again practice stopping the car, unlocking the case, removing the trigger lock, loading the weapon and defending yourself because you reasonably believed your or someone else was in imminent danger of greivous harm or death. (Not gonna happen.)

3. In use: You ar eat home and just happen to be cleaning your handgun when a gangster walked in on you and threated your life. If you just happen to have your gun with youand some bullets nearby, you can in the spirit of self defense load your weapon and protect yourself. You CANNOT leave your gun lying around the house without a trigger lock, or not locked in a case. You must have immediate and reasonable physical control of the weapon, and again it must be unloaded. If you are asleep, the gun is not in use and must be put into storage. If you are in the back yard doing something, the gun in the house is not in use and must put in storage.

A lot of the law here refers to reasonable or vague concepts such as "container". The legal definitions and the courts interpretation of them is a whole other thread. Read. Remember that the political agenda is to ensure that guns are eventually abolished from civilian hands. With a few exceptions, the courts will do their best to victimize you further. You had better be prepared to defend yourself vigorously in court in the event that you do defend yourself. The police will treat you like you are guilty of murder and will charge you no matter what the circumstances. Only your lawyer and the advance preparation you put intothe event will save your ass. Be prepared. In Canada you will feel like you are the criminal and the violent rapist/burgler/gangbanger was the poor innocent. Liberal politicians genuinely believe that for the good of society as a whole, you are better off dead than defending yourself.

P.S. Vote conservative in federal and provincial politics if you want to change that premise.

Summary of the summary: Self defense is possible in a very few select situations. The only practicable one is home defense. Learn the laws, practice them and consult a lawyer if you are serious. Keep a trigger locked shotgun in the bedroom unloaded, or an unloaded trigger locked pistol or revolver locked in a safe designed for fast entry in the bedroom. When the night goes !bump! be prepared and trained to unlock and load in the dark, identify your suspected target, decide if lethal force is required and carry out your decision. Put all your stuff away again, call your lawyer, then call the police. Then tell your employer why you won't be at work for the next six months to two years because the police will arrest you, confiscate your guns, charge you with murder while the prosecutor will seek man2 without bail an you will have to wait it out, and pay the bail if you are lucky enough to get one. Remember gun crimes are gonna get "mandatory" sentences, so if you fail in any respect to comply with all laws then you go to jail for having the audacity to not die by the hands of a violent criminal.

You will hear it often enough that it is better to be alive and in jail, then dead, but only you can decide the right course of action. If you do, then be prepared. Read the laws, consult a lawyer take as many courses as you can.
 
An excellent post, drvrage. Hopefully you have saved us all a lot of aggro.

Aliceminer, as an old schoolteacher used to write on the board, "RMLAID", ie Read, Mark, Learn and Inwardly Digest the above post, which contains excellent advice.

:) Stuart
 
Here is my interpretation of a summary of self defense.

- You cannot carry weapons for the purpose of self defense.

Sorry, I believe this to be wrong.

From my book: Canadian Law and Self Defence (though there is much more to this topic than this little precis)


S. 87 – Possession of a Weapon for a
Dangerous Purpose:

The following section is used in the arrest and conviction
of those people who have a weapon and claim a legal right
to carry it but may be planning to use it for crime.

S. 87 Every one who carries or has in his possession a
weapon or imitation thereof, for a purpose danger-
ous to the public peace or for the purpose of com-
mitting an offence, is guilty of an indictable offence
and is liable to imprisonment for a term not
exceeding ten years.

The Right to Carry a Weapon for
Self Defence:

Greenspan notes:
“This section does not prohibit persons arming them-
selves for self-protection
and in the absence of other cir-
cumstances the offence under this section is not
committed if the accused carries for self-defence a
weapon that is an appropriate instrument with which to
repel, in a lawful manner, the type of attack reasonably
apprehended and if the accused is competent to handle
the weapon and likely to use it responsibly.”

Although Mr. Greenspan is a noted member of the profes-
sion and had his own T.V. show about legal issues, we
should regard this only as his opinion. Who will judge
whether my choice of instrument is appropriate or not? I
assume a judge or jury will, so I also assume I must choose
a weapon to suit their criteria and not perhaps the situa-
tion itself. Leave your cannon at home, I guess. The ques-
tion of the likelihood of using your weapon of choice responsibly may allow you to call on an expert witness in
your favor, i.e., your sensei or a police expert, to show that
your weapon of choice was appropriate to the task and
that you are practised in its safe use. -page 75

Sulland 2CCC 3d 68:
In 1982, an 18 year old named Sulland was seen by
police to be hiding something under his jacket. It turned
out to be a can of beer, but the police also noticed a
jack-knife in a belt case. Sulland was arrested and con-
victed under S. 85. The trial Judge asserted it was not
proper for persons to arm themselves for self-protection
when they walk on the streets. This was overturned by
the B.C. Court of Appeals who ruled, in part:
“The Code does not prohibit instruments for
self-defence and S. 85 should not be converted into such
a prohibition. There are many other prohibitions in the
Code. They focus on the weapon (S. 89) or the place it is
taken (S. 86) or the manner in which it is carried, S. 88
(2). S. 85 is narrow; it focuses on purpose –I conclude
that when the trial Judge equated self protection with a
purpose dangerous to the public peace he erred.”
This case clearly supports the idea that carrying a
weapon for self defence purposes is not against the law,
even if there are a lot of restrictions that do go along with
it.

Arrance 3CCC 2nd 341:
This 1971 case found Arrance guilty of carrying a
concealed weapon because the folding knife he had
in his pocket had a locking blade. It could only be

opened manually. It was not a switchblade nor was
there any evidence that it was designed to be a
weapon. He was convicted anyway.
He appealed the conviction and won, leaving us to
wonder at the extra cost to the taxpayers to sort out
this Judge’s obvious bias. At least the judgment
included these words:
“While it may be used effectively in fighting
offensively or defensively unless there is some-
thing in the evidence to show that it was
designed to be so used, a conviction (for carry-
ing a concealed weapon) should not be regis-
tered.”

If all the laws about the firearm are complied with, a firearm is a suitable weapon in some cases to be used "on the sudden" for self defence.

Ted
http://defendyourself101.ca
 
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