Hmmmm.. I don't know where to go next.. ** Bedding update**

notsorichguy

notsorichguy

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Little back ground.

I bought new this last spring (April/May 09) a Remmy 700 30-06 SPS DM. I traded in a Tika 30-06 to do so (this is my 3rd 30-06)(Please hold the comments about the Tika being a better gun.... That is YOUR opinion not mine!)

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I put about 100 rnds down range (breaking in the barrel and what not) I was not getting real stellar groups with factory ammo. This didn't really bother me too much as I have reloaded for years and I am planning on building up a load (or 3 or 6 :) ) anyway.

So I start out with the only brand and weight of bullets that I can find 500 of in stock anywhere (around here anyway). They happen to be Berger 185gr. VLDs.

I look at what I have for powder and I have about 1/3 lb of 4350, 1/4lb of 4320, 6 lbs of 7828 and 2lbs of 3031 nothing I can build a load with.... So I go to the local g-store, all they have in anything I can find data on is IMR 4007 ssc. So I buy 2 lbs and the 500 185gr Bergers they have in stock.

I had done some "testing" with 5 different 150gr ammo's and the best shooter of the bunch happened to be 150gr American Eagle FMJ OAL of 3.17 (the fatory ammo's went from 3.28 to 3.17) I was getting groups under an inch so that is a good place to start in my book.

Along I go on my merry way. I load up a ladder test from 45.5gr to 51.0gr in .5gr intervals

The inital ladder test shows 49.0 gr of 4007ssc to be the "butter" zone. (.769" group)

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I work up another Ladder test from 48.6 to 49.4 in .1gr intervals. (49.0 turned out to be the best there as well I still don't think it was a waste of time....really.... ;) ). (1.257" group)

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So now I am confused.... the second group is a little bit bigger than I was expecting.... I put it on the fact that the wind was gusting from 10 to 25 kmph when doing the second test. The first test had little wind, from 5 to 10kmph.

So now I figgure I'll start palying around with the OAL.... I have lots of time (by now it is early Sept. I have untill mid Oct. before I NEED this this working like a top)

I decide to do 5 shots each @ 3.17, 3.24, 3.29 & 3.34 OAL with 49.0gr 4007ssc and 185gr berger VLDs. The 3.17 group is up over 5" and the best group is 3.24 OAL. (1.295" group)

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So now I am very confused.... But I started using a new die, I was using an RCBS die and now I am using a Hornady New Dimension Die. (I was getting a bit of case run-out with the rcbs, so I switched to the Hornady.... Problem solved) So I decide to load up another OAL test (just 3 shots this time) (just to ease my mind) I do 3.17, 3.20, 3.24, 3.27, 3.30 OAL with the Hornady dies and 3.17 with the rcbs die..... The best result this time..... 3.27 with the hornady dies. (1.452" group)

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I am noticing that the groups are starting to get some vertical stringing and are starting to open up a bit. Groups from this last test go from 3.43" to 1.54". the wind may have played a bit of a factor in this test as well, it was gusting Left to Right at a 35 degree angle across the range from 15 to 35Kmph, but that doesn't satisfy the vertical stringing on some of the groups. I also have ruled out my scale, Velocities are pretty consistant in the last OAL test they ranged from 2508 fps to 2573 fps with a max differance of 43fps and a min of 13fps on any one 3 shot group.

So I asked at my local g-store/gunsmith shop what they might think the problem could be. The consensus it that I have to bed the action and float the barrel in order to get better consistancy with my groups.

I brought up the fact that if I don't wait between groups when shooting factory ammo (as opposed to waiting for the barrel to cool when doing a ladder test) I tend to get better groups after 10 or so rounds down range (when the barrel is nice and warm/hot). For instance I was shooting some 150gr Fedeal ammo Soft Points (the box says I should get 2910 fps, according to my crony the average was closer to 2950) The first group I shot (after the last Ladder test) was around 4 1/2". I then shot off 2 more mags in fairly quick order (not waiting for the barrel to cool, just reload the mag and back to it) the last group I shot (after the barrel was hot) was under 2". So I shot a 4 shot group, then 8 more rounds in less than 5 min, then another 4 shot group..... and the group got smaller...... This is new to me......

I was told that the action is expanding from the heat, which makes it tighter and this is the cause for my inconsistancy when cool. I asked what kind of time line we are looking at for a bedding job.... 2 to 4 weeks, which gives me zero time to finish dialing in my loads before hunting season. To be honest I am a little hesitant to Bed the action myself.

Just for curiositys sake I loaded up a dummy rnd and smoked the tip of the bullet (to make it black) just to see what my head space is. I measured from where the marks in the black are (from the Lands I presume), but I have no idea how to use this info. (2.805" from the back of the case)

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I was thinking I would back the ogive of a couple of thou off the lands..... and go from there....... I am now down to 3 to 4 weeks before Hunting Season.... its getting to be crunch time!!

Any Help or advice would be great!
 
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Read up on bedding and do it yourself. Pretty hard to screw up, just use lots of release agent (I use paste wax) Float the barrel after bedding and your good to go. Only takes 15 minutes to do the bedding, let it sit overnight, then float the barrel the next day.

Or go hunting with your 1.2" groups and shoot a deer. I try not to shoot a 3 shot group at deer anyway...;):D


Here's a couple threads on bedding...

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217320&page=2

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237844
 
The reason why I am a little hesitant to be the action is, when I take the action off of the stock I see little or no place for the bedding material to go. At the front of the action there is a void that could be filled but for the rest of the action I only see direct contact on the action (except where the bolt relase tab has a relief).

When I re-instal the action in the stock it is a fairly tight fit. I also have the Detachable Mag version so there is very little stock material in that area to remove to allow for the bedding material.

To be honest if I was to bed the action I don't really see the benifit as any "give" I see in the stock will still be there when I am done.

I was looking at pillar bedding the action (that at least makes some sense) but if I screw up I am out of options as replacing the stock before hunting season is pretty much an impossibility (I assume).

I am thinking I may wait untill after the season is over to do anything "major" to the stock. Too much risk at this stage of the game.

I guess its not so bad having a rifle that will shoot 1.2". That just means I will have to keep my shots under 200yrds this year..... I just don't trust it any further out (in its current state).

Anybody have any Ideas for what I need to do with the OAL issue I seem to be having..... or is this all traceable to the stock?
 
The bedding gives you a solid hold for the action, so when you are trying to float the barrel channel, its not moving around. If you try to float an SPS stock first, you'll see what I mean.
The recoil lug recess isn't a tight fit to the lug so there is some play there. You may not notice it now, because your forend is holding the barrel tightly. I've bedded/floated 3 or 4 SPS stocks recently and they all benefited from it. the latest one will be tested tomorrow...

Here's a rem 700 being bedded at the lug and tang...

http://www.ranchtrippin.com/bedding/
 
Now thats a bit more clear.....

So where can I get some pillars?

What do I use as a bedding material?

And Pam, really, Pam as a release agent.......

Thanks Blargon.... You are starting to make me think I can do this without f**king it up....

*Seriously thanks!
 
I don't use pillars, so can't help you there. I use Minwax paste wax for a release agent, never tried PAM...Just wax everything you don't want the epoxy stuck to, screws included.

Here's a good read on it. Gale McMillan knows a thing or two about stocks...

http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh/bed.html
 
Other thing to mention is that @ .002 off the lands I would be suprised if the rounds fit in the mag. Try some different bullets, sooner or later you find one the rifle likes.

A
 
If you don't think there is any benefits to bedding you should be happy with what you got.

There is a pretty good, slow motion video out there, showing a 50 cal rifle firing, and the amount of flex that occurs amongst the component parts. It's a bit of an eye opener, if you consider the differences between what you feel 'should ' be happening, vs. what actually happens when the shot goes down range.

Anything you can do to increase the odds of making the 'sameness' happen with each shot, is going to help.

Definitely try different bullets, too. You may be at the peak, already, of what those particular bullets are able to do for you.

Cheers
Trev
 
Don't use Pam. It works but the surface finish on your epoxy will look bad. Use any paste wax or car wax. Just coat the surface with wax and buff it off. Do it 3 times to be sure.

Does your stock have the aluminum block in it? If it does you don't need pillars at all. Arguably, you don't really need pillars with a synthetic stock anyway unless it's a really flimsy one.

I would bed the first inch or so of barrel as well as that decreases the leverage the barrel has on the receiver by a large amount.

It's really not that hard to do, especially if you've ever worked with epoxy before.
 
notsorichguy said:
I tried to chamber 3 dummy rnds from the mag with an OAL of 3.55.... They seemed to feed reliably, the bolt wouldn't close but they fed from the mag.... 3.45 feeds and chambers with no trouble.
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3.45" is pretty long, make sure you have enough bullet in the neck...
 
I use auto wax, put on a few coats to make sure that that you didn't miss any small spots as an astonishingly small amount of glue will REALLY hold your rifle. It's also crucial to sand and scuff up the area of the stock that will be epoxied. This not only gives something for the epoxy to stick to, but helps remove mold release and oils that may be contaminating the surface and preventing the epoxy from sticking.
But I'm still hung up on one of your first comments: there's actually people who think one of the current cheapie Tikkas is BETTER then a Remmy 700? I'll be shaking my head and giggling all day now.
 
Am I the only one who's noticed that he isn't measuring his groups correctly? That 0.769" is actually 0.461".....If you are measuring the outside of the group, subtract your bullet diameter to get the center to center measurement of the group. This the commonly used measurement.
 
KodiakHntr said:
Am I the only one who's noticed that he isn't measuring his groups correctly? That 0.769" is actually 0.461".....If you are measuring the outside of the group, subtract your bullet diameter to get the center to center measurement of the group. This the commonly used measurement.
Click to expand...

Yes you're right. Its not as bad as he thought...:D
 
762nato said:
Other thing to mention is that @ .002 off the lands I would be suprised if the rounds fit in the mag. A
Click to expand...

Obviously you are unfamiliar with the Remington 700 Magazine length. Even the DM long action will accept a loaded round 3.665" long. You will have trouble finding a 30-06 with a throat that long in anything!!! Regards, Eagleye
 
I always feel a little 'dirty' (for lack of a better word) when I measure from inside to inside of my groups.... Kind of like I am cheating.... But if you say its ok..... :D

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I got some advice from a guy today (I was jawing at the g-store after work) he told me to knock the 2 nibs at the front of the stock off my barrel (all SPS models have this). He said that worked for him on his SPS in 300 mag. I always thought you had to bed the action before you could float the barrel? (at least in this model) He also told me to "keep on going" with my ladder tests untill I see some pressure signs, "Loading stats are much lower today than they were 20yrs ago"....... I dunno about this, I don't mind going a gr or so above max loads if I don't see pressure signs, but much more than that I start to wonder about combined metal fatigue.

A different guy told me to make sure my rnds are off the lands by at least 5 to 10 thou. He also said that I should do another ladder test at this OAL as the powder levels will probably change (makes sense to me) This guy also told me to not bother bedding the action or floating the barrel "thats a waste of time!" (this guys opinion I actually trust a bit as I have seen him shoot and seen some of the trophys he has around and he has always given good advice as far as shooting, reloading & hunting are concerned)

The gunsmith at the same place told me to bed the action and float the barrel to get better groups. Now this is from the "new" smith that just graduated from school in the states...... The old Codger that usually "farts" around in the back is out this week (his opinion I trust.... He has never steered me wrong) he is getting a bit older and they "got him some help" just last month. So I am waiting for him to get back to see what he thinks.

I dunno...... Turns out I will not be going for moose this year (apparently I "don't have the time" according to the missus) so I do have 6 weeks till deer season starts... so I have a bit of time to frick around with loads and what not....... I was thinking I would start with a new batch at the "revised" OAL and do another test...... I think I will wait untill after the season to bed and float and whatever else...... If I decide that is what I want to do.

I would actually not mind a nice walnut stock for this rifle..... But that is a different story.

Cheers!
 
I just re measured where my bullets hit the lands, these Berger Bullets are LONG! I will have .45" of the bullet in the neck of the case and my OAL will be 3.424.... Does that seem like a bit much?

I also have a smatering of other bullets, I have some Hornady 150gr SST's that will be only .13" into the case to get that close to the lands...... I think may have a head space issue?
 
Eagleye said:
Obviously you are unfamiliar with the Remington 700 Magazine length. Even the DM long action will accept a loaded round 3.665" long. You will have trouble finding a 30-06 with a throat that long in anything!!! Regards, Eagleye
Click to expand...

Right... my SPS in 7 STW has that same magazine and I use the whole magazine as per your measurement...I can hardly imagine a 30-06 round taking most of it.

About the stock....its a piece of ####...Im sure beddingng will help but you will probably end by replacing it.
 
nsrg: Headspace is a measurement from a point on the sloping shoulder of the chamber back to the breech face when the bolt is held back against the locking shoulders. You seem to confusing that measurement with overall length to the end of the throat.
 
I kind of got lost with this testing back near the beginning. Why not shoot a number of 5 shot groups at the best load that your ladder testing gave you before moving on, i.e. 49 grains at the OAL you were using. This would give you a good estimate of how the rifle shoots at one pretty good value before before testing things like OAL or anything else. Once you know this you can tell if any change makes a difference. Personally I would have done this even before testing the 0.1 grain steps, different OALs, different bullets, powders or different anything else. (I'd have used 0.3 grains with that sized case, but others might use less and still others would be satisfied with 0.5 grain steps...). Another good thing to do if this is a rifle for hunting is keep track of where your first shot in testing goes and whether it is from a fouled or clean barrel. That first shot is the most important shot in hunting and you will know whether to carry the gun clean or fouled and where the first round goes. I kind of agree with trevj that one might want to be satisfied with what one has in this case. If the rifle groups between 0.769 and 1.295 inches outside measurement it sure is a good one! As for measuring, well it seems OK to me to measure outside diameter of the group. If a guy wants to know center to center measurement of the group then one subtracts a caliber width. Personally I do the latter. It kind of makes me feel good...:D
 
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