Why 45/70 and not .458 Win Mag?

444shooter said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think he means in the chamber pressure difference. The Rigby factory ammo is loaded to a lower pressure.
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I'm sure the old cordite loads for the Rigby had lower pressures but I'd be surprised if modern production Rigby ammunition were signifigantly lower pressure than 416 Rem ammo.

Just a guess though.:D
 
Ardent said:
It's a bloody waste and shame so many are culled. Yes, they say it protects biodiversity and habitat, but humans always seem to manage to screw everything up with our supposed intelligence. It seems before us, animal populations managed themsleves better than we ever will be able, and yet we meddle. If our species could stop viewing every other species as a "resource" of ours, our evolution and future would finally be making a turn off a dead end path. Sorry for the hijack, it's just when I see figures of up to 6,000 elephants killed by one man, I get very, very disgusted with our species.
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Elephant cropping is absolutely necessary.

The best book you will ever find on elephant cropping is Mahoboh by Ron Thomson. He explains the need for elephant control in great detail.
 
Pickles said:
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Huh?
I've had a 416 Rigby and still own a 416 Rem.
Both will shoot 400's at 2400 so not sure why the Rem is a bad choice?
If you want to push the 400's faster the Rigby wins but not sure why the Rem is a poor choice when it pushes the identical bullet at 2400 which is where the Rigby made it's reputation.
I've pushed the Rigby to 2700ish and the Rem to 2550ish with handloads.
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444shooter is right. I'm referring to the chamber pressures. The Rigby operates at lower pressures for a given velocity. Too, with the higher pressures of the Remington and given the Model 700 action and it's shortcomings as a DGR (and I don't care what Seyfried ever said...the Remington action is no, and never was, suitable for use as a serious DGR), that's why the Rigby gets the nod. Certainly not for the exorbitant price of factory ammo, brass or rifles. Now a 416 Remington in a M70 would be a slightly better choice, but I still prefer the lower pressures of the Rigby for hunting in Africa.
 
Personally, I'd rather see elephants sport hunted, or culled, rather than watch them starve. A smaller, healthy population is much better than a larger population on teh verge of collapse.

To do nothing about the current situation would disgust me worse than a man shooting elephants on control.
 
Demonical said:
Ron Thomson, a Gov't cropping agent shot 1000+ ele's and used a .458WM exclusively. Read his book Mahoboh. He swore by the .458WM.
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And Tim Wellington, a Rhodesian game officer, who was killed by a cow elephant after hitting it with three solid frontal brain shots? The bullets had penetrated only about 4" and his ammo later chronographed at +1600fps or so.
 
Pickles said:
[/B]

Huh?
I've had a 416 Rigby and still own a 416 Rem.
Both will shoot 400's at 2400 so not sure why the Rem is a bad choice?
If you want to push the 400's faster the Rigby wins but not sure why the Rem is a poor choice when it pushes the identical bullet at 2400 which is where the Rigby made it's reputation.
I've pushed the Rigby to 2700ish and the Rem to 2550ish with handloads.
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Don Heath and Ganyana have both written about the problems with the .416 RM - they are the same as those with the .458 WM - compressed loads in high temperature = bad and short ammo shelf life.
 
^ Right off the top, I am biased. I love the .416Rem. Gotta state that clearly.

Ganyana is biased against it, which is just a differing opinion. It's not right or wrong. You generally find that once a person has formed an opinion, they pretty much never budge from it, but will forever echo their opinion, even though they may have told everybody 1,000 times.

Like I bet you know TBart's opinion on the TSX already...



Fact: When INTELLIGENTLY loaded, there's no issue with the .416Rem. It's also a fact that a helluva lot of shooters will overload cartridges. Reference any online reloading data and you find that out.

There are modern powders that are not heat sensitive. RL-15 is one and it's one of the best powders available for the .416Rem.

I load mine to a sedate 2350fps at the muzzle, but had no trouble making a 250 yard shot with that.




* And yes, I am aware of Ganyana's credentials and I really have none...
 
Demonical said:
^ Right off the top, I am biased. I love the .416Rem. Gotta state that clearly.

Ganyana is biased against it, which is just a differing opinion. It's not right or wrong. You generally find that once a person has formed an opinion, they pretty much never budge from it, but will forever echo their opinion, even though they may have told everybody 1,000 times.

Like I bet you know TBart's opinion on the TSX already...



Fact: When INTELLIGENTLY loaded, there's no issue with the .416Rem. It's also a fact that a helluva lot of shooters will overload cartridges. Reference any online reloading data and you find that out.

There are modern powders that are not heat sensitive. RL-15 is one and it's one of the best powders available for the .416Rem.

I load mine to a sedate 2350fps at the muzzle, but had no trouble making a 250 yard shot with that.




* And yes, I am aware of Ganyana's credentials and I really have none...
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TBart has an opinionon the TSX?:confused:

I've also owned a .416RM - and regret having sold it - but I used mine here in N. America, where I suppose you don't have the alleged problems. If I were to choose a rifle to take on a safari I'd probably give those chaps' opinions a fair bit of weight. If for no other reason then because in some instance it is wise to learn from others' mistakes/misfortunes.

Like you said though, if you load it down then I suspect you'd avoid the problems, although I have no idea because I have zero first hand experience with such matters.
 
I come down on Kevin Robertson's side of the argument...which is against the Remington. He's probably more biased because of the Remington action than any real danger of squib loads, but hey, I'm conservative. Why mess with something that works? Mind you, it would be a fine bear rifle in a stainless M70.

Weren't we talking about the 45-70 here? Talk about off-road-right!
 
When I was working up a load for RSA in the Rigby I was out in -30. They say H4831SC isn't temperature sensitive, but that`s a 60 degree change. Not sure I'd want to give it that big a test.
 
Demonical said:
^ Me too.

I've often wondered what would happen to velocities if I took my Oct. recipe out in 35C heat. If the RL-15 is truly not temp sensitive, the maybe nothing, eh?
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Throw the Lott in the mail with some brass and bullets - I'll see what it needs at -35C to get to 2400 and compare notes.

As the Old Man likes to say - f*ck for a deal!:D
 
The way I see it the .416 Remington looses against the .416 Rigby in both temperature extremes. As noted previously the .416 Remington has issues when it's ammo has been stored in the heat, and in the cold the Rigby can make more velocity. The Remington is a capable powerful round, but I can't help but think that Remington dropped the ball by not bringing out a version on the Ultra case. That would have resolved the high pressure issue that causes problems in the heat, and would result in a faster, flatter shooting round for North American big game hunting. Hell, they've loaded everything else on that case why not a .416 and a .458?
 
I've owned a couple of each. Currently have a Safari Express 416 Rem. Both are very capable, the Rigby is bigger and more powerfull period. It kicks way more, you're burning 20 grs more powder to do the same thing as the Rem. You have the ability to go way faster but is it required. Think of a 350 TSX at 2650 fps. Big step up from the 375 class. I shot my first Elk with a .416 300 X bullet at 2900+. Flat shooting, very hard hitting. Absolutely flattened in animal at about 175 yds. Good B.C. gun.
 
I think it boils down to that for North America, the Remington is far more than enough, for Africa, it is adequate with some minor shortcomings. The Rigby does it all, but has it's own shortcomings for North America, like burning more powder than necessary and pricier brass. I fall on the Rigby side, but both are clearly powerhouses and good cartridges, I just prefer the euro approach to big game cartridges.
 
Ardent said:
I think it boils down to that for North America, the Remington is far more than enough, for Africa, it is adequate with some minor shortcomings. The Rigby does it all, but has it's own shortcomings for North America, like burning more powder than necessary and pricier brass. I fall on the Rigby side, but both are clearly powerhouses and good cartridges, I just prefer the euro approach to big game cartridges.
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I think that you might also come down on the side of the classics versus the contemporaries.;)
 
Originally Posted by Ardent
I think it boils down to that for North America,
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Oh man you guys are going to hate me for this but when it boils down to North America all a person needs is a short barreled 375RUM... :D
 
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