money isnt really an issue, but i already presently own a 12ga and .308
.308, 00 buck, or slug for grizzly?!
- Thread starter DiSmAnTLeR
- Start date
money isnt really an issue, but i already presently own a 12ga and .308
i do have access to a lee enfield ShtMLE. it doesnt shoot straight though.
it does have less kick than my 700.
i am puzzled as to why you think it would be 'very lethal bear defence' and not the .308, is it that much more powerful than a .308? doesnt seem like it.
Potato/potatoh....
.308 will shoot the same weight bullet a wee bit faster, though.
the .308 was bought new last year and 1000x more accurate than the enfield.
id be lucky to get 1 shot off, nevermind 10, so magazine capacity is moot.
I'm commenting on cartridges, not rifles.
yeah, i didnt mean to quote you there.
tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
To Rman: Yes he is trying to kill the bear because it expires after you that is of no help to anyone! Plus a wounded bear is more, not less dangerous. And if you do "drive it away" would it be better off dying a slow death because of it's injuries? If it didn't die, it could end up being someone else's problem. Lots of problem bears have been previously wounded.
To Dismantler: For something handy I would pick a short barrelled shotgun with the big buck shot. Don't worry too much about penetration as a defensive encounter will be very close and full frontal. Using buck shot it had better be a head shot though. The .308 does have the edge in terminal performance however. Or the slug...Dang it, now I'm doing it!
Whatever you pick should be handy as it's of little use lashed to your pack. For rifle rounds go to a heavy for caliber bullet for defensive use, it'll hold together better. As for your .303 I suggest getting your barrel miked as the bore diameter varied wildy with these rifles. It might be that the bullets you're sending down the bore aren't quite optimal size.
tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
Sorry I meant to copy this as well. See above.
- Location
- where it rains
Ah, beautiful. You should mod them to make them as portable and easy/fast to get on target as possible. Gatehouse's suggestion on loading different types of shells is also very practical, of course you would set that up to your preference. That's the major benefit of using a shotgun ( you already know this I'm sure) Its just so versatile. I personally load my first three shots> slug,00buck,slug
Edit: Don't forget to be creative/diligent in your pursuit of muscle memory, tactics, and good shooting habits, It goes without saying, and I've seen your annoyance at people suggesting this on this thread but being the best shooter you can be before SHTF is really the majority of the battle.
Why is it we have a good discussion about bears and appropriate defensive weapons like this one.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=429035
Other times not so much.....
I'm not sure what to say here, but you've stepped on your ####, yet you feel no pain??
When all else fails zip up!
Go shoot a bear at close range with a slug so you can see what a 12 gauge slug does and does not do. I think you will be impressed.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Provided it is used within it's range, a good 12 ga slug will kill a bear dead. There is a difference in the penetration of a rifle bullet and a shotgun slug, but not enough difference to save the bear. I am a firm believer that once you start something you finish it, and that also applies to killing dangerous bears. All rules have their exception, and the exception here is if you have one gun protecting a group of people. Under those circumstances it would be irresponsible to leave the group in order to track down a wounded bear, that could circle around and attack the group when you are too far away to do anything about it. Under those circumstances, when you've shot the bear and it disappears, calling in a helicopter to bring in a CO in and get your people out is in order. An on call helicopter is a normal part of an emergency plan for back country walking tours here.
The .303 and the .308 are ballistically similar, so any performance issue that applies to one applies to the other, particularly if your .303 happens to have a a mauser action rifle like the P-13/14s. High quality .308 caliber bullets are easier to acquire than .311, but if you want a good .311 they are out there. I don't think there is anything unpatriotic about choosing a .308 over a .303, both rounds were designed by our allies, and both rounds have been chambered for rifles issued to the Canadian military. As far as that goes, the SAR folks are issued a .30/06, and the .30/06 has been previously issued to Canadian troops on a limited basis, for those who consider national pride when choosing a rifle. A modern .308 sporter could be as much as 4 pounds lighter than a Lee Enfield or a P-14 Enfield, particularly when you consider the quasi-scout style rifles out there.
A Lee Enfield magazine is a good place to store the day's/ week's/month's ammo, but seriously, a 10 round magazine is of no advantage in the bear defence scenario. If you have not solved the problem with one or two rounds he's got you, and thats it. You don't start shooting at a bear from 50 yards in a non-hunting defensive shooting situation. I've had bears within a dozen feet of me, have held my fire and they've moved off, but when its that close, its a hair trigger situation and the slightest misstep from either of us and the bear's dead. As for magazine capacities, my Mossberg 590 is set up to carry 17 rounds (chamber empty, 7 rounds in the mag, 6 in the side saddle, and 4 in the speed feed stock). I like that I don't have to carry bulky shotgun ammo in my pockets, but the down side is a very heavy gun. On the other hand my .375 and our .30/06s all carry 5 rounds but I load the .375 with 4 because it feeds the first round better that way. My .44 carries 6 rounds and I have 3 reloads on my belt, which is just optimistic, but makes me feel better.
In this matter of bear defence, it is prudent to carry the most powerful arm you can afford and competently use. This theme is repeated over and over in these threads. Yes minor cartridges have killed bears, and while one can argue that any gun is better than no gun, it is clear to me at least that choosing a mouse gun is not the way to do it. Bear hunting and bear defense are two different things. The flip side is that regular practice is mandatory, so unless you are particularly well off, the choice of a $5 cartridge has its limitations, regardless of its performance level. This was the lesson I learned from packing around and regularly shooting a .416 Rigby for a few years.
I would like to go on the record now that if a bear, a cougar or a llama was intent on eating me I wouldn't want it to just go away...
.
Please dont' take my suggestion as anything other than humour. I recommend Brenneke slugs if you can find them, CHallenger ones look pretty damn good and regular Foster style slugs if that's what you can find. I dont' recommend any type of shot.
Normally I would have left my post for a good haw haw, but it could get you killed....
If you use a shotgun, use slugs (unless as Boomer pointed out, there is risk of over-penetration)
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
I just went out and bought buck shot, and a box of #8,...
jerk!
I use a single shot baikal and am practicing firing the bird shot first, then quickly loading in the buck shot for the second shot, and then a slug for the third... as long as I see the bear charging from say, a mile or so, I'm good to go with that first shot,.. the second and third are what need practice..
- Location
- where it rains
Just the suggestion of loading different shells, personally I would never want to use birdshot for a bear, and as you've pointed out 00 would have lower penetration for applications where you would need that as well as a spread which can be helpful in situations.
edit: (Ive been carrying slug followed by buckshot for some time now, so if my method gets me killed it wont be your fault)
Last edited:
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
Ruger #1 ? 45/70?
I carried a 22" barreled T/C Contender carbine chambered in 45-70 loaded with 430gr WLNGC's @ 1750fps for several years as my defense/camp/plinking gun...
Faced down a few grizzlies and a load of black bears while carrying it definitely made me feel better than just carrying a walking stick.
Faced down a few grizzlies and a load of black bears while carrying it definitely made me feel better than just carrying a walking stick.
