.450 Adams VS bears

starpuss

starpuss

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I picked up a gun in 450 Adams do you think it’s good for bear defense? Right now I use my colt 1892 in 41cal.



.450 adams Service history
In service 1868-1880
Used by British Military, North-West Mounted Police, Colonial Military/Police Forces
Production history
Designed 1868
Specifications
Bullet diameter .455 in (11.6 mm)
Neck diameter .475 in (12.1 mm)
Base diameter .477 in (12.1 mm)
Rim diameter .510 in (13.0 mm)
Case length .69 in (18 mm)
Overall length 1.10 in (28 mm)
Rifling twist 1:16
Primer type boxer
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
225 gr (14.6 g) (Kynoch black powder, ball) 650 ft/s (200 m/s) 211 ft·lbf (286 J)
225 gr (14.6 g) 700 ft/s (210 m/s) 245 ft·lbf (332 J)
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o ya and this is the gun i picked up. i did not get it yet. still in the mail. got it off gb

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You know, these cartridges and their ilk were carried for years by prospectors, traders, soldiers and NWMP, etc. so we can't write them off as completely ineffective, but you have to consider the numbers.

No better than 700fps and 250 ft/lbs, compared to any modern round that produces well over 1200fps and between 750 to 1500 ft/lbs. I have been considering an antique for both a backup predator piece and a camp plinker, but personally I wouldn't go any less than .44 Russian. Less might be ok for average black bears and smaller predators like Cougar, Coyote, Wolf, etc. Grizzlies, well you might as well throw a rock. And average 250 lb black bear is not much thicker than a man, and we know these cartridges will take a man down with proper placement. What we often forget though, is that contrary to Hollywood myth, old west gunfights seldom ended with a DRT gunslinger. They often survived, and those who died very often did so after a prolonged bleed or infection. You can't expect a bear to go bang-flop like it might with a high powered rifle or shotgun slug.

Many an old-timer probably did just fine in the bush with these guns, but unfortunately we just don't have the history to tell us how many failed in that task either.
 
Incurable Collectoer said:
.450 Adams vs. a bear = Bear wins
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Why, are they known to wear body armor? I have seen black bears taken with lesser "inferior" calibers. Unless you try to pop them in forehead, it's a good chance any lead pill is going to do more than hurt. I certainly would not actively hunt bear with most handgun calibers but as a defensive round likely ok. Starpuss is in Manitoba, so no grizzlies to worry about.
 
450 on bear

450 vs bear, you say ....?

My money is on the bear. Best scenario - you and the bear will die together.
He'll beat the crap out of you and crawl off to die a slow, lingering death.

A well placed .22 is theoretically capable of taking a bear, but I'd rather read about it than do it. Imagine something that weighs 300 lbs +, has teeth claws and an attitude.

I've shot several black bears, the last two 400 lbs+, with a Shiloh Sharps 50-70 using a 425 gr bullet over 65 grs FFG. Once in a while I find grizzly tracks around here and I get my butt out of the area PDQ.

Try it - let us know the results.
 
I think I would rather use a head shot with a 22 rimfire. Unless you shoot the bear in the eye or in the ear canal, all you are going to do on the short term is to piss it off.

cheers mooncoon
 
The .450" Adams ctg was withdrawn from use due to its lack of stopping power on the Queen's enemies. Bears as a rule are larger and tougher than the afore mentioned.
 
I don't understand one thing.. why wouldn't you want to take a bear with a lead slug to the head? Is lead known to bounce off bear skulls or something?

:confused:


There are no bears where I live, but I too have a small accumulation of antique guns against possible bears attacks, should I ever venture on a hunting trip in uncharted territory, lol... I have a .44 special, a .45 ACP (Webley) and an 8mm French Lebel revolver. I was always under the impression that all three calibers *could* take the largest bear if a shot was placed directly in it's head - although someone once suggested shooting for its' throat as its' charging at you.

Thoughts?
 
762mm said:
I don't understand one thing.. why wouldn't you want to take a bear with a lead slug to the head? Is lead known to bounce off bear skulls or something?
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Yes, sort of. A Bear's skull is not only thick, but when he is looking directly at you (as in the case of a charge), his skull presents a very shallow slope, and a narrow target. It results in the same effect as armor on a tank, and multiplying the relative thickness can shatter the round before it penetrates, and without nearly enough damage to stop the animal. Sure would cause a headache and some long term damage, but some think that could also just turn a bluff charge into a desperate maul by a slowly dying bear.


There are no bears where I live, but I too have a small accumulation of antique guns against possible bears attacks, should I ever venture on a hunting trip in uncharted territory, lol... I have a .44 special, a .45 ACP (Webley) and an 8mm French Lebel revolver. I was always under the impression that all three calibers *could* take the largest bear if a shot was placed directly in it's head - although someone once suggested shooting for its' throat as its' charging at you.

Thoughts?
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Penetration is your problem no matter where you shoot it. When it is down on all fours facing you, there could be up to 12" of dense shoulder and pectoral muscle protecting the vitals. If you are facing a charging animal, you would only likely get a couple of inches of penetration with a sub-500ft/lb round nosed handgun bullet. If you are knocked down and on the ground already, the best shots would be upwards into the animals head (jaw/neck) or torso where there is the shortest distance to something important. If you are standing and "lightly" gunned, you really want a side shot over a frontal shot if at all possible. Of course this is unlikely in a defensive scenario...

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I have personally witnessed a 110 grain lead slug moving near 1200ft/sec at very close range bounce of a black bears frontal skull, it took a follow up 180 grain lead bullet from a rifle at 1800ft/sec to finish the job. Most handguns modern or antique don't come anywhere close to that kind of energy. A full load 45 colt 255 grain @960ft/sec would be the closest ballistic energy handgun round I can think off. A 454 casull would be even better. These are one chance stop shots. If lucky with placement it might take 1 to 3 shots from a .455 or .44 russian. You might as well just unload your entire cylinder and pray for the best.
 
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762mm said:
I don't understand one thing.. why wouldn't you want to take a bear with a lead slug to the head? Is lead known to bounce off bear skulls or something?

:confused:


There are no bears where I live, but I too have a small accumulation of antique guns against possible bears attacks, should I ever venture on a hunting trip in uncharted territory, lol... I have a .44 special, a .45 ACP (Webley) and an 8mm French Lebel revolver. I was always under the impression that all three calibers *could* take the largest bear if a shot was placed directly in it's head - although someone once suggested shooting for its' throat as its' charging at you.

Thoughts?
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Finally the only shining light, of a close to decent choice!

Sixguns by Keith, page 72:

"The 357 is also good but inferior in knockdown power to the 44 special and 45 Colt with heavy handloads. These big guns will, with round pointed normal loads, kill all small game with little mutilation, and with thier heavy handloads with flat pointed bullets, will kill any game on this continent, at close range if properly placed."

There you go, right from the handgun expert!

At first glance 45 ACP sounds good, but most informed persons state, the Webley is a tad bit weak for a normal diet of even standard, G.I. hardball loads. This choice, would be a very last resort only, IMHO. Stiff handloads, in 45 ACP/Auto Rim, start with a S&W Model 25, dash whatever.
And the 8mm...........forget about it, in my best Brooklyn accent!

PS: I assume your 44 special can take the abuse of heavy handloads, put to the required task.
 
The whole idea of using an antique handgun as your primary defense against bears is absurd. Carry a rifle, and use the handgun as a backup for when the bear has you down. Even a small black bear is one Hell of a tough critter, and contrary to the belief of some CGN'rs, they don't stand broadside, presenting a perfect shot, when they attack. I had one go predatory on me last Spring, and he came up behind me like a cat. When I looked over my shoulder, he was down low, head down, coming fast and silent. I would have had NO time to draw a pistol, and the speed he was going would have made hitting him.....difficult. Thankfully, I had my rifle in my hand, which came up automatically. Working the bolt stopped the bear, and we had a Mexican standoff until a shot in the ground in front of him convinced him to leave. A similar incident occurred a few years back, but bruin used trees as cover. Had he not stepped on a noisy branch, I wouldn't be posting this today. The point is, if a bear is stalking you, you will most likely only get one shot by the time you get the gun out. Best to make that shot with something like a .45-70, than a .450, .455, .476, or .44 Russian. When it comes down to it, I'd rather have ANY gun, than use my fists, or teeth. But don't bet your life on an antique handgun. There is a good reason so many of the old pictures show guys with both a rifle and a pistol.
 
BUSHMAN79 said:
The whole idea of using an antique handgun as your primary defense against bears is absurd. Carry a rifle, and use the handgun as a backup for when the bear has you down. Even a small black bear is one Hell of a tough critter, and contrary to the belief of some CGN'rs, they don't stand broadside, presenting a perfect shot, when they attack. I had one go predatory on me last Spring, and he came up behind me like a cat. When I looked over my shoulder, he was down low, head down, coming fast and silent. I would have had NO time to draw a pistol, and the speed he was going would have made hitting him.....difficult. Thankfully, I had my rifle in my hand, which came up automatically. Working the bolt stopped the bear, and we had a Mexican standoff until a shot in the ground in front of him convinced him to leave. A similar incident occurred a few years back, but bruin used trees as cover. Had he not stepped on a noisy branch, I wouldn't be posting this today. The point is, if a bear is stalking you, you will most likely only get one shot by the time you get the gun out. Best to make that shot with something like a .45-70, than a .450, .455, .476, or .44 Russian. When it comes down to it, I'd rather have ANY gun, than use my fists, or teeth. But don't bet your life on an antique handgun. There is a good reason so many of the old pictures show guys with both a rifle and a pistol.
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i am looking for a backup hand gun. i keep my rem 870 with me when i am going for walks.
 
you would only likely get a couple of inches of penetration with a sub-500ft/lb round nosed handgun bullet
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Have you ever tried measuring the penetration of a 260grain 650 fps load? I think if you take the time to do so you will get a nice surprise.
There in is the answer to the Ops question. Test your load for penetration and accuracy. If those two measured parameters fit your comfort level your set.
 
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