Forum for the eternal conflict between the 9 and the 45?

9mm: better penetration, lower stopping power
45: poor penetration, high stopping power

It is a false argument however, as .357 SIG is what real men use. 45 like stopping power, can fit more rounds than .45 in your mag, 7.62x25-esque penetration
 
And I'm sure that the paper, cardboard, steel plates and occasional water filled pumkin* really care about all this. This IS Canada after all.....




*- Try one of these next Fall with a really fast round such as a rifle or .357 Magnum. It's quite something to see the pumpkin dissapear in an orange coloured cloud.
 
9 vs 45, who cares? The paper I shoot is so tough it never says ouch anyway. All I know is the 9mm Parabellum was the first pistol cartridge to use modern smokeless powder. It was invented before the .45ACP (1898, went into production 1902) and is still issued as a military round world wide. The .45 showed up after and exited before the 9mm from widespread military issue. So what does all this mean?

Not a God damn thing because until TDC/TIM COX chimes in I, and the rest of you know nothing!
 
Could someone please enlighten me and explain what they think "stopping power" is? ;) It is a myth, by the way. There is no such thing as stopping power.... There is no magic one shot kill power attributed to any handgun caliber.

Modern ammunition design pretty much makes the old debate moot. Shot placement is all that really matters. The caliber that you shoot most accurately with is the one that you will be the most successful with. Nothing else matters if you're not hitting the vital organs that you need to. Hell, even a 12 ga. slug can't hurt a guy if you miss him... ;)
 
krausb said:
Could someone please enlighten me and explain what they think "stopping power" is? ;) It is a myth, by the way. There is no such thing as stopping power.... There is no magic one shot kill power attributed to any handgun caliber.

Modern ammunition design pretty much makes the old debate moot. Shot placement is all that really matters. The caliber that you shoot most accurately with is the one that you will be the most successful with. Nothing else matters if you're not hitting the vital organs that you need to. Hell, even a 12 ga. slug can't hurt a guy if you miss him... ;)
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I don't have any first hand experience but I have talked to people who do and they agree that shot placement is key but they also agree that the ammunition does make up for certain margins of error in shot placement. A 308 will drop guys with the same shot placement that a 223 won't. :p Same goes for a 45 vs a 9mm but hey I haven't tried it so who knows.
 
If the choice is between 9mm and .45 when both rounds are loaded with ball ammo, the .45 wins. When the 9mm is loaded with hollow points and the .45 is loaded with hollow points, the .45 wins. But when the 9mm is loaded with hollow points and the .45 with ball, things get a bit muddy. Fighting is about stopping your opponent, and unless you or your antagonist is suicidal, the chances are you will not be lucky enough to have a face on belt buckle to belt buckle target. A pelvic shot with a 9mm will certainly stop your assailant's mobility, but it might not prevent him from pulling a trigger. Conversely, if you miss judge and hit your assailant who is quartering towards you, resulting in a target only 4" wide, at too shallow an angle, you won't stop him with a .45 either. The bottom line is that the performance from either the 9mm or the .45 is sufficient to save your life in a fight, if you can't decide which is better, carry both. The correct mind set, tactics and training, and the choice of an appropriate carry gun(s) is more important than a choice of .36 vs .45.

The olympic marksman who is concerned with the pin point placement of his shot will probably be killed in a fight. The IPSC competitor who can make a lightning fast draw and hit a single dimensional silhouette target 7 times in 3 seconds at 25 yards, will probably do no better. The man who has studied the problem of putting rounds on a 3 dimensional human target, who is physically and emotionally prepared for the fluid and often shocking environment of combat, who is alert to things that appear to be out of place, and who values his own life over that of his antagonist, has the best chance of survival, regardless of which cartridge his pistol is chambered for.
 
9mm is good if you can hit someone right between the eyes who is running at you wildly from 10 meters every time. But with a .45, even if you just graze a toe, they die instantly.
 
THX1139 said:
9 or 45? Well, it's like choosing between Wilma Flinstone (45) and Betty Rubble (9). Sure I'd go with Betty, but I'd be thinking of Wilma.

btw a double plus internet score if you guess where I got that from.
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You're right. We're nuts. This is an insane conversation.
She'll never leave Fred, and we know it.
 
http://www.frfrogspad.com/jmb.htm

As translated from the original ancient manuscripts by Fr. Frog.
© copyright 2002 by John C. Schaefer

1 In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, "Thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it workith. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain."

2 "And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm."

3 And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

4 Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it.

5 And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle. a

6 And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

7 Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men, the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

8 And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.

9 And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both #### and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.

10 But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

11 And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

12 Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.

13 And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation b by the followers of John.

a Several old manuscripts add the following text. "And they [also rendered as "these men"] didst chamber it for cartridges who's calibers startith with numbers less than the Holy Number 4. And lo the Lord did cause great grief amongst these men when their enemies who were struck in battle with these lesser numbers didst not fall but did continue to cause great harm."

b or Hell

© copyright 2002 by John C. Schaefer

For the faithful, the "feast day" of St. John Moses Browning is January 23.
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is it any surprise that the number "4" spoken in Chinese sounds very similar to the word for "death"?

the only "number 9" i can think of is some oddball black-n-white film, and Barney (from The Simpsons) burping.
 
Gibbs505 said:
No conflict, the 45 is a better gun all round and the 9mm is used by the cops and the army because it is cheaper to shoot.
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Kinda true. More like, heaven forbid a cop kill someone. 9mm much less likely to kill someone.

If given a choice, 1911 in .45 for me on duty. Don't have a choice, so 9mm comes along.
 
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