35 Whelen/358 Norma

[dan belisle]

I have both the 35 Whelen and a 358 NM (and a 350 Rem Mag and 358 Win just to round out the set). The 358 NM hits harder on both ends then the others. Not as hard as the 358 STW or the 350 G&H, but hard. I can't get 2600 from my Whelen with 250 gr bullets, but oddly enough I can with my 350. In any case, the 35 is a great hunting rifle, very efficient game killer. - dan

 

[kevin.303]

any handloads you'd like to share?

i've found with with both Sierra 225 Gamekings and Nolser 225 BT's ( now discontinued) that 64 grains of H4895 will give me 3 shots well under an inch out of the 358 NM i have thats built of a 1903 Springfield. i've used 4350 as well with almost as good results, but not a fan of filling the case to point of near compression loads

 

[Slooshark1]

I have both a .35 Whelen Model 700 and a Ruger Number 1 in .358 Norma Mag. I enjoyed shooting the Norma last Fall but it's not something that you can shoot all day. I don't think the recoil is much worse than the .338 Winchester but then again, it depends on what loads you are shooting. I haven't experimented enough with the Norma yet as I just got it last summer. I've yet to shoot anything with it other than paper and a steel gong. With the Whelen I had great success with 60 grains of RL-15. 225 Barnes TSX clocked at 2720fps. I pounded a few moose, deer and black bear with that rifle. I'll see how this Fall shapes up and decide which rifle to take.

 

[SuperCub]

The 358 NM hits harder on both ends then the others. Not as hard as the 358 STW or the 350 G&H, but hard.

Do you have a 350G&H? Cool old cartridge!


.

 

[Whelen B]

Used to have a Whelen and didn't realize you could get 2600 fps with a 250 gr. bullet honestly.

You can - honestly.

 

[Demonical]

^ Well you can overload any cartridge, right? But why? There's no benefit in squeezing 50 more fps... or 100 fps...

The Whelen is awesome, at designed velocities.

 

[dan belisle]

Do you have a 350G&H? Cool old cartridge!


.

Used to, built on a sporterised P14. Traded it to a gent in southern BC years back for something I lusted after (which completely slips my memory at the moment. I guess old guns are like old girlfriends, you remember the good ones that got away). - dan

 

[SID 358 NM]

re. 358 nm

Anyone gone from the Whelen to the Norma Mag? Was the performance on game very different and was there a big differnce in the recoil?

Never had a Whelen but have had a Norman on a P 14 for years shoots jacketed or cast bullets just fine .

 

[Demonical]

You can - honestly.

Here's something interesting I stumbled across today. I'm reading Big Game Rifles and Cartridges and Sixgun Cartridges and Loads. It was written in 1936 by Elmer Keith.

From chapter 3, Long Range Stalking Rifles, page 71.

"This leaves the three largest calibers suitable for long range shooting, namely the .35 Whelen, the .350 Griffin & Howe Magnum and the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. The .35 Whelen with either the 220 grain at over 2800 feet, or the 250 grain at over 2600 feet velocity, becomes a very fine long range load, particularly for our heavier game..."


Backs up the 2600 fps claim. Hmmm...

Pretty interesting read btw. Picked the book up off eBay.

 

[Whelen B]

Backs up the 2600 fps claim. Hmmm...

I guess I shoulda got Elmer to tell U in the first place.

 

[Mike Webb]

Here's something interesting I stumbled across today. I'm reading Big Game Rifles and Cartridges and Sixgun Cartridges and Loads. It was written in 1936 by Elmer Keith.

From chapter 3, Long Range Stalking Rifles, page 71.

"This leaves the three largest calibers suitable for long range shooting, namely the .35 Whelen, the .350 Griffin & Howe Magnum and the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. The .35 Whelen with either the 220 grain at over 2800 feet, or the 250 grain at over 2600 feet velocity, becomes a very fine long range load, particularly for our heavier game..."


Backs up the 2600 fps claim. Hmmm...

Pretty interesting read btw. Picked the book up off eBay.

And everybody knows Elmer Keith never stretched the truth in his life. The man who shot coyotes at 600 yards with a .45 colt hangun.

 

[bushwhacker]

Have Whelan - Will Travel

Was in Shooter's Den on Tues. Reminded Dennis that I looked at a .35 Whelan in a 7600 he had a year or so ago, but passed because it was rough - pitted bore and exterior. He said "If you want a Whelan, I have a nice one". He pulled out a Remington 700 CDL Whelan. It was just like new, only proof it was used was shiny threads in the scope mounting holes. It was like a lost puppy - it followed me home. Now I have to sight it in, get a set of dies and work up some handloads. I would appreciate some suggestions for powder. I like the ball powders because they measure more accurately in my powder measure. Think I will try 250Gr. bullets, to get greater energy than my 30-06 with 180s. All suggestions gratefully considered.

 

[wapitiwhacker]

Was in Shooter's Den on Tues. Reminded Dennis that I looked at a .35 Whelan in a 7600 he had a year or so ago, but passed because it was rough - pitted bore and exterior. He said "If you want a Whelan, I have a nice one". He pulled out a Remington 700 CDL Whelan. It was just like new, only proof it was used was shiny threads in the scope mounting holes. It was like a lost puppy - it followed me home. Now I have to sight it in, get a set of dies and work up some handloads. I would appreciate some suggestions for powder. I like the ball powders because they measure more accurately in my powder measure. Think I will try 250Gr. bullets, to get greater energy than my 30-06 with 180s. All suggestions gratefully considered.

Congtats on the new Whelen, you will love it I'm sure. RL15 and Varget seem to be two of the most prefered powders for the 35 Whelen. Mine likes Varget best.

 

[dan belisle]

Some Whelens will hit 2600 with 250 gr bullets, some won't. So it goes. - dan

 

[Whelen B]

Some Whelens will hit 2600 with 250 gr bullets, some won't. So it goes. - dan

So true. However some of those who can't make 2600MV - or don't - tend to pontificate then - saying that it can't be done safely by others with their rifles.

Bushwacker - had that very CDL in my hands a few days before you. VERY nice! Dennis couldn't figure out why I didn't put my $$$ down on it. Simple reason is I've been stretching my budget on a number of other rifle buys lately and I already own a 700 Clasic/35Whelen. You will probably like that one. With ReL 15 and that 24" tube it should reach out. Good 4 u to take in a lost pup that way. Happy 35cal shooting fun.

Regards,

 

[Demonical]

And everybody knows Elmer Keith never stretched the truth in his life. The man who shot coyotes at 600 yards with a .45 colt hangun.

Elmer Keith was one of the great wildcatters and handloading pioneers! If Elmer says the Whelen will do 2600fps, then it's 'gospel' to me. Elmer Keith had more experience at the bench and the range then the lot of us put together!

The only thing about that is I don't believe Elmer had the advantage of pressure testing and his loads mighta been a bit hot. I do know the man never blew himself up, so they hadda be safe enough.

So I'm gonna re-work my Whelen load and step it up some. I will shoot for 2500 fps with no pressure signs and see what happens.

Last day at the range I fired these:
60.5grs H414, 250gr Hornady IL spitzer and Win primers.
Velocities: 2389, 2396, 2357, 2397, 2374, 2384, 2375, 2360 fps MV.

Looks like I'll be able to add a few grains...

 

[Whelen B]

Yes it wouldn't suprise me a bit that Keith loaded a bit over "book max" loads. Many old timers did somewhat on occasion I guess. Probably "the book" hadn't even been writ yet. But at least they loaded cartridges up to their potential - in and around 60,000psi in the case of the 35Whelen in a strong modern rifle. The expansion ratio of the 35Whelen makes it difficult to even reach that kind of pressure with slower rifle powders and 250s. In that connection H414 has worked for 300gr loads pretty well in a good friends rifle but may be a bit slow for top velocities with 250s - but ???? As you know already ReL15 is one of the best if 2550 to 2600MV with 250s is what you are seeking. Get some - it's a velocity champ IMO.

Incidentally, about a month ago, the first time out with ReL17 I made 2600MV from a 22" barrel bolt gun without undue strain on the brass. I mic case heads before I chamber and immediately after firing. I must get back to trying ReL17 some more to find my top loads.

 

[Why not?]

I believe you are right about that. If any powder should make it above 2600 with 250s in the Whelen, it will be Re17. It easily gets 200 gr bullets to more than 2600 fps in the 308 Win!

Ted

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Both myself and River Rat on here have used the 358 Norma Mag for the past 30+ years. While certainly not for the faint of heart, it is a very fine big game cartridge. You very quickly realize that there is quite a difference between a 250 gr bullet at 2500 (edited to correct velocity) and one at over 2800 fps, which is easily obtainable in the Nine Norma.

Garry's rifle is built on an '03 Springfield, weighs right at eight pounds all up with scope sling and mag full of ammo. It has more than 2000 round down the barrel, and still shoots under an inch at 100 yd. IIRC, neither of us have ever lost an animal with this cartridge.

I have sold two 358 Normas to guys on this board. Both of them have been very pleased with their rifles. I have often wondered why more guys don't rechamber or rebarrel to this truly great round.

Ted

And I'm one. Thanks again Ted. I'm very pleased with not only the rifle but also the accuracy I've obtained with the initial shooting I've done with it to date. I've put in for a LEH Moose draw in the B.C. central interior and if successful, the 358 NM will get the call.

I find the recoil, using Norma 250gr factory ammo, to be substancial but not punishing. I did pick up some Barnes 225gr TSX that I plan to work up loads for but with the amount of Norma factory I have, I'll likely go with that for this year.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

And everybody knows Elmer Keith never stretched the truth in his life. The man who shot coyotes at 600 yards with a .45 colt hangun.

Primarily when I first got into handgun shooting, shooters and authors like Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton have stood at the front of the line. With their experimentation, experience and resulting developments, these people have paved the way. I've mentioned this and posted this picture previously but in the early to mid 70's, as Elmer was 'getting on' a shooting buddy and I headed to visit him in Salmon Idaho. The most memorable day in my years of shooting.

While I've done a bit of shooting over the years since, I'd be lucky if I've come even close to 'burning' 1% of the ammo he did. Earlier on in my experience shooting handguns, on a number of occasions a few of us had the opportunity to 'tryout' some long range shooting. With the backdrop where the impact of the shots could be easily seen, although the handgun is basically considered a close range firearm, we soon come to appreciate what is possible with some of the more substancial calibers and practice. Once we ranged in on a target and using some of Elmers long range shooting positions, seeing what shots I made, I have no doubt at all about his claims.