accuracy question - AR vs Swiss

Kreech

Kreech

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Hi All,

I have a 'noob' accuracy question.

I know that AR's can break the 1/2MOA barrier without too much effort, but I haven't seen any measured accuracy results from the Swiss rifles. Does anyone have a target pic, or other data to show accuracy of these guns?

If I state it differently, for 2x the price of an AR, I get an un-restricted auto-loader, but is it "as good"?

Or, stated differently, if I have $3k burning a hole in my pocket, do I buy a Swiss rifle, or two AR's?

Thanks!

Kreech
 
if I have $3k burning a hole in my pocket, do I buy a Swiss rifle, or two AR's?
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You are not comparing apples to apples. A $1500 AR is not going to serious outperform a $3000 swiss rifle. You need a $2500 - $3000 AR to seriously outperform a $3000 swiss rifle. The AR is certainly capable of much better accuracy but it does take some money to make it do that.
 
The swiss arms is an accurate "assualt rifle" - so if you want to compare a target grade AR to the swiss arm , it will be like comparing apple to orange.
 
Suputin said:
You are not comparing apples to apples. A $1500 AR is not going to serious outperform a $3000 swiss rifle. You need a $2500 - $3000 AR to seriously outperform a $3000 swiss rifle. The AR is certainly capable of much better accuracy but it does take some money to make it do that.
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The AR can outshoot or do the same thing as the swiss arms for the same or less money. The key is a good barrel ( those CHF barrels made by FN or Colt Canada...or Stainless Steel match)

If your chief objective is "accuracy" and do not care about the non-restricted status, thenyour probably will get more accuracy for the buck by going AR.
 
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Suputin said:
You are not comparing apples to apples. A $1500 AR is not going to serious outperform a $3000 swiss rifle. You need a $2500 - $3000 AR to seriously outperform a $3000 swiss rifle. The AR is certainly capable of much better accuracy but it does take some money to make it do that.
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Stag 6R $1600 .....needs optics.
 
1/2 MOA with an AR - Really ??

Can an AR seriously break the 1/2 MOA barrier "without too much effort" as suggested by the OP ?

Now I assume that groups are always 5 shot groups and I have three rifles that can do half MOA or better - Savage 10FP in Choate Stock (sometimes) Kimber Tactical (most times) and Sako TRG (every time) - but all are bolt guns. My AR (M+P15) is a really nice, super-reliable rifle but no half-minute of angle rifle no matter how measured.

If we talk 3 shot groups I have a Remington 700 in .270 and a Weatherby in 30-06 that may contend but I ain't putting money on it and the "without too much effort" would be one helluva stretch :)

I shoot pretty much every weekend and I see lots of AR's being shot but I ain't seeing lots of 1/2 MOA groups at target change time.
 
Hi All,
Thank you for the comments and the fruit salad.

The RRA AR's are listed at 3/4 MOA out of the factory. ($1600)
The Les Baer customs are guarateed at 1/2 MOA (and are $2200+)
(both at 100yds)

So, yes, breaking from 3/4 to 1/2 MOA can be expensive, I stand corrected.

So far, only one Swiss owner has said 1MOA at 200 yds.

Any other experience out there?

Thanks!
Kreech
 
The first question to be answered is what are you going to do with the rifle.

If you plan to go hunting varmint, the answer is simple.

Swiss or SL8 = non restricted.

If you want a target rifle that will be used at a club only, AR is the answer.

In regards to accuracy, the AR will outshoot the Swiss and the SL8.

The main advantage of the AR plateform is the ability to choose what componants will be added to the rifle.

My personal experience with a match upper came with the CLE(Compass Lake Eng)
These guys build Highpower Competition uppers that will shoot 1 000yds against M1A.
Mostly built with Kreiger barrels and the fast twist, an 80grs bullet will compete with a 308 and an 90grs will outshoot them.

The other choices you have with the AR are more on the ergonomics side.
Trigger and stock.
There is no way the Swiss and SL8 can come close to a Geissele trigger and having a PRS stock will allow you to put any type of sights and be able to be comfortable behind the rifle in any position.

In regards to price, the AR will be close to the Swiss and SL8 when your all done, but the rifle will be exactly how you want it without compromise.

The other advantage, you dont have to put 3 000$ right now,(for most of us poor people, 3 000$ is a lot of money ;) ) just buy an out of the box AR and built it slowly when the money available and when your experience with the rifle lead you to make choices in what componants is right for you.

If you are not satisfied with one componant, just put it for sale on this site and pick another one.

I also hear about owners of the Swiss and SL8 owners claiming how accurate there rifles are, but never seen a good report with pics of target and loads.

PS; for those who will comment about the AR #### where it eats and the such.
Please read a book that was publish after the bible to understand that if you use good ammo and powder it is not an issue.

Books like the Black Rifle by John Feamster and the Competitive AR15 by Glen D. Zediker is a must.

2-PS; A CLE upper cost about 1100$
 
Although I love AR's my choice would be for the Swiss. Excellent quality and 1 major major advantage...non restricted. You can go to any range without the required paperwork. If the AR's were non restricted then I'd choose one over the swiss due to a very flexible platform. What am I talking about..I own few AR's and a Swiss ;)
 
If you only have $3k, and the restricted status is not an issue, go for a $1500 AR, a good optic ($7-800) and $7-800 in ammo and mags.

(And this is coming from a Swiss Arms owner) ;)

If you want to use it outside of the range, the SA is your best option.
 
If you want accuracy, the ability to go off range AND spend less time cleaning then go for a Swiss Target special with a decent optic.

If you want a lot of flexibility and a real range tack driver then look to the AR.

No matter what you want, Accuracy costs. Rifle, optics and lots of rounds down the tube.
 
Its been stated elsewhere by many other people, but here goes again...

If you can shoot and maintain the accuracy posted by many seemingly compelling internet claims, you will establish legendary dominating status over every service rifle match you enter.

Period.




I must be a pretty apathetic shooter. Because I'd certainly happily settle for half the accuracy yielded from many such claims
 
Go to the EE section and look for a non restricted HK SL8 which should go for around 1800-2200 and then get a Norinco CQ M4 for $699 or less and have the best of both worlds.
 
sprint said:
If you can shoot and maintain the accuracy posted by many seemingly compelling internet claims, you will establish legendary dominating status over every service rifle match you enter.
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Unfortunately, shooting good groups will not guarantee winning service rifle match these days (Maybe in the US). Only 40% of the shots are to be fired from prone these days. Essentially, every stage is rapid firing after some physical moves.
 
greentips said:
Unfortunately, shooting good groups will not guarantee winning service rifle match these days (Maybe in the US). Only 40% of the shots are to be fired from prone these days. Essentially, every stage is rapid firing after some physical moves.
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Exactly.

Where thousands of dollars for fractions of MOA are going to yield MOST shooters diminishing returns. There are many good rifles available that will out perform the vast majority of shooters across a diverse course of fire right off the rack.
 
sprint said:
Exactly.

Where thousands of dollars for fractions of MOA are going to yield MOST shooters diminishing returns. There are many good rifles available that will out perform the vast majority of shooters across a diverse course of fire right off the rack.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
Shooting tight 'groups' is in my mind defined as limiting the physical size of a mean point of impact. While a limited group size rarely ever mattered, if the mpi was centered on the best scoring ring, more often than not the resultant score would be better than if A) the group was larger or B) the center of the group was displaced off of the center of the target.

physical exersion and varied positions play havoc with the size of the mpi, and in some cases the location of the mpi as well. The tighter the size of the mpi will always yeld a net increase in score potential assuming a center of target hold.
Assuming the shooter is cabable of holding for 3moa, and the gun/ammo combo is cabable of 1 moa, the potential for that shot is 4 moa.

Assuming the shooter is capable of holding for 3moa, and the gun/ammo is capable of 4 moa, the potential for that shot is 7moa.

The difference between the two is massive.

Bottom line is groups matter.
 
beltfed said:
Shooting tight 'groups' is in my mind defined as limiting the physical size of a mean point of impact. While a limited group size rarely ever mattered, if the mpi was centered on the best scoring ring, more often than not the resultant score would be better than if A) the group was larger or B) the center of the group was displaced off of the center of the target.

physical exersion and varied positions play havoc with the size of the mpi, and in some cases the location of the mpi as well. The tighter the size of the mpi will always yeld a net increase in score potential assuming a center of target hold.
Assuming the shooter is cabable of holding for 3moa, and the gun/ammo combo is cabable of 1 moa, the potential for that shot is 4 moa.

Assuming the shooter is capable of holding for 3moa, and the gun/ammo is capable of 4 moa, the potential for that shot is 7moa.

The difference between the two is massive.

Bottom line is groups matter.
Click to expand...

3+1=5 a 3 inch circle with a one inch ring becomes a 5 inch circle
3+4=11 a 3 inch circle with 4 one inch rings added becomes an 11 inch circle

the difference between the two is indeed massive
 
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