Something of interest

[nrut]

From 24hrCF,
Just curious, but if you load at 65k psi, how high is the pressure of the outliers? I have always thought that you should load to an average pressure such that all loads within 2 standard deviations don't exceed the max allowable pressure.
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John Barness answers....
Exactly. That's why the SAAMI standards for average pressure in any cartridge are under 65,000 psi.

Some cartridges tend to show more variation in the pressure of individual shots than others, the main reason the average pressure standards vary for different modern bolt-action rounds (though some are lower because the round is an old one).

The short-fat magnums tend to show less pressure variation than other rounds, the reason their average pressure standards are higher than for most others. But they are still usually under 65,000.
_________________________
JB

"New opinions are always suspect, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common." -John Locke
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Chuck,
This is one reason I read J. Barness and not much T.Wieland.. John writes interesting and informative articles.
T. Wieland on the other hand seems to like to appeal to the emotional ignorance of his readership...
Either he is a lazy writer, or thinks very little of his reader ship intelligence, or he is just a little azzwipe..
Pitiful and pathetic won't you say Chuckie??

 

[chuck nelson]

From 24hrCF,
Just curious, but if you load at 65k psi, how high is the pressure of the outliers? I have always thought that you should load to an average pressure such that all loads within 2 standard deviations don't exceed the max allowable pressure.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Barness answers....
Exactly. That's why the SAAMI standards for average pressure in any cartridge are under 65,000 psi.

Some cartridges tend to show more variation in the pressure of individual shots than others, the main reason the average pressure standards vary for different modern bolt-action rounds (though some are lower because the round is an old one).

The short-fat magnums tend to show less pressure variation than other rounds, the reason their average pressure standards are higher than for most others. But they are still usually under 65,000.
_________________________
JB

"New opinions are always suspect, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common." -John Locke
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck,
This is one reason I read J. Barness and not much T.Wieland.. John writes interesting and informative articles.
T. Wieland on the other hand seems to like to appeal to the emotional ignorance of his readership...
Either he is a lazy writer, or thinks very little of his reader ship intelligence, or he is just a little azzwipe..
Pitiful and pathetic won't you say Chuckie??

Azzwipe, Chuckie?

Pound sand.

I've stood in front of John Barsness and had him tell me to my face Winchester didn't and never had produced a LH Winchester Model 70. Even though I had bought, sold, and owned several of them. None of them know everything, each is slave to his own opinions. Including you.

 

[chuck nelson]

From 24hrCF,
Just curious, but if you load at 65k psi, how high is the pressure of the outliers? I have always thought that you should load to an average pressure such that all loads within 2 standard deviations don't exceed the max allowable pressure.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Barness answers....
Exactly. That's why the SAAMI standards for average pressure in any cartridge are under 65,000 psi.

Some cartridges tend to show more variation in the pressure of individual shots than others, the main reason the average pressure standards vary for different modern bolt-action rounds (though some are lower because the round is an old one).

The short-fat magnums tend to show less pressure variation than other rounds, the reason their average pressure standards are higher than for most others. But they are still usually under 65,000.
_________________________
JB

"New opinions are always suspect, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common." -John Locke
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck,
This is one reason I read J. Barness and not much T.Wieland.. John writes interesting and informative articles.
T. Wieland on the other hand seems to like to appeal to the emotional ignorance of his readership...
Either he is a lazy writer, or thinks very little of his reader ship intelligence, or he is just a little azzwipe..
Pitiful and pathetic won't you say Chuckie??

To add to this, look further back into 24 hr and reference John Barsness with Charlie Sisk. He was telling everyone at one point that Sisk was having serious pressure issues with factory WSM's.

 

[Gatehouse]

To add to this, look further back into 24 hr and reference John Barsness with Charlie Sisk. He was telling everyone at one point that Sisk was having serious pressure issues with factory WSM's.

Factory rifles or factory ammo?

 

[chuck nelson]

Factory ammo. Sorry.

 

[chuck nelson]

I guess at the end of the day, what exactly are the advantages to the WSM cartridges?

 

[Amphibious]

Advantage? Few if any. I recently orderd a .325wsm. Why? I really wanted a new M70 stainless in .338-O6, but - didn't want to pay for a custom. And there was something about 8mm that I liked. And I'm hoping that my purchase of a wsm will bring BigRed back to CGN

 

[Gatehouse]

Factory ammo. Sorry.

I tried some factory ammo when I first got my rifle. Some of it (nickel plated Winchester Fail Safe) showed signs of high pressure. Brass WInchester with 180gr PP bullets showed no pressure signs. That was quite some time ago now, almost a decade, so problems should have been ironed out by now. Also,the chamber of my rifle was kinda "oval" which increased pressure signs.

I handload, so haven't' tried any factory ammo in years. I get the expected velocity with no pressure issues, for my rifle (with longer leade) and several factory rifles (SAAMI chambers and throats) I've loaded for, so I don't see what the "over pressure" issue is.

(Incidentally, Leeper extended the throat in my rifle a bit because I thought I was getting high pressure signs without expected velocity with my handloads. The system works well and is very easy to load for, but the real culprit was a faulty chrono.)

 

[Gatehouse]

I guess at the end of the day, what exactly are the advantages to the WSM cartridges?

They aren't as boring as 30-06's?

Here are the advantages. Whether this is important to a person is up to them to decide....

.270WSM- gives you .270 Weatherby velocity in a S/A rifle. One of only 3 factory .270 caliber cartridges and the first one introduced in many years.
.7WSM - gives you 7RM velocity in a S/a rifle
300WSM- Gives you 300 WM velocity in a S/A rifle
325 WSM- Gives you a 8mm cartridge where no 8mm cartridge has been introduced since the 8mm RM.

People like Wieland get too hung up on cartridges they don't like. They want to "expose the truth" and save the world....**YAWN***

It's another choice, something interesting to play with if someone wants to. Don't like it? Thats fine. Just come out and say you don't like it, dont' try to pretend that you have uncovered the deep dark secret and try to juice up your article with bullschit. Just say "they aren't for me" and move on....

 

[Amphibious]

325 WSM- Gives you a 8mm cartridge where no 8mm cartridge has been introduced since the 8mm RM.

yes. the Short-8. the NEW KING of the 8mm's.

 

[chuck nelson]

Just say "they aren't for me" and move on....

Or say the .375 Ruger is the be all end all and do the same?

 

[blargon]

The short mags might not offer much, if anything, over the old stand-by's, but is that a reason not to buy one? If a guy already had a .300WM, then there's not much sense in buying the other. But someone looking for a new rifle, that has no magnum, either one will do the trick.

Some people are afraid of change. Maybe we should only have an enfield or a mauser, cuz everything that came after them is re-inventing the wheel. That includes the .30-06 and the .270...

 

[SuperCub]

Here are the advantages. Whether this is important to a person is up to them to decide....

.270WSM- gives you .270 Weatherby velocity in a S/A rifle. One of only 3 factory .270 caliber cartridges and the first one introduced in many years.
.7WSM - gives you 7RM velocity in a S/a rifle
300WSM- Gives you 300 WM velocity in a S/A rifle
325 WSM- Gives you a 8mm cartridge where no 8mm cartridge has been introduced since the 8mm RM.

Looks to me that the only advantage (however slight) is that they save a few ounces in a magnum cartridge rifle.

There used to be some people who would quote the interweb and spout that the short mags would deliver less recoil than a comparable chambered rifle everything else being equal.

.

 

[Toomanyguns]

Short Magnum is a bit of an oxymoron.

 

[Gatehouse]

Or say the .375 Ruger is the be all end all and do the same?

Gotta spread the GOOD WORD. Not the hate that Wieland is spreading.

If a guy already had a .300WM, then there's not much sense in buying the other. But someone looking for a new rifle, that has no magnum, either one will do the trick.
)

That's what I've ben saying all along, for years.

[]Looks to me that the only advantage (however slight) is that they save a few ounces in a magnum cartridge rifle.

Important to some, not to others...Up to the individual to decide.

There used to be some people who would quote the interweb and spout that the short mags would deliver less recoil than a comparable chambered rifle everything else being equal.

180gr at 3000fps is 180gr at 3000 fps. Might get a wee bit less recoil due to the 3 grains less powder, but I doubt your shoulder can tell..

.[/QUOTE]

 

[SuperCub]

I always thought the 270 or 7mm WSMs were the best ones if one wanted a lightweight SA mountain rifle with more horsepower.


.

 

[8 ball]

Ohhhh, Gatehouse is !

Or say the .375 Ruger is the be all end all and do the same?

 

[Boomer]

Gate, I'm glad you are having success with your WSM. I won't buy one because I don't see an advantage of a short cartridge over a long one, particularly when considering my preference for long, heavy bullets. Given a factory rifle with a standard throat I can see many disadvantages of a short cartridge, and have experienced problems with short cartridges that can only be resolved by opting for a custom rifle. Apparently you were forced to address one of these boogy men as well by extending the length of your factory throat length. Properly executed, a custom rifle is a wonderful thing to behold, by the owner anyway. He has defined the problem he must solve with gun fire, recognized the short comings of the factory solutions, and has devised a tool with which he can address the problem better than he could with any other.

No cartridge is perfect. For example, the rebated rim of the Ultra Mags requires that the top round in my .375 be purposely positioned as far forward in the magazine as possible or the bolt can skip over it. Recoil repositions the subsequent rounds forward so feeding is never a problem after the first shot. While I've never had a failure to feed with this rifle, the proper placement of that top round is something I have to be aware of. I am of the opinion that designing a cartridge to optimize accuracy by following the principles or the PPC cartridges is an unacceptable tradeoff of reliability in a big game rifle. I can use all the reliability I can get, so I refuse to give up any of it in exchange for a small gain in accuracy that can't be used in the field . . . not by me anyway.

It's little wonder that there is disagreement amongst knowledgeable shooters as each of us has our own experiences and life styles to draw from to say nothing of our own ideas as to what is appropriate. Warren Page seemed to think his 7mm Mashburn was the answer to the big game rifle question, and the later success of the 7mm Remington Magnum suggests he was on to something. Meanwhile, Elgin Gates preferred his .300 Weatherby and used it all over the world. Jack O'Conner championed the classic stocked .270 sporter while Jeff Cooper made many of us realize that the majority of big game could be taken with a small quick handling .308 carbine which matched the original ballistics of the .30/06, driving a 150 gr bullet at 2700. The 180 @ 2700 that we have come to accept as the standard didn't appear for some years later. And so it is on CGN, what is right for one guy makes the next guy scratch his head and wonder what he was thinking.

 

[shortaction]

There are two kinds of people - ones that try to excel and raise the bar for themselves, then there are others who don't raise the bar but try to lower everyone else's.

This is true in writers as well and it usually shows up in their presentation style - either "thought provoking" or "hate invoking".

I believe Terry Wieland falls into the 2nd category (poorly researched, out of context arguments and carefully biased theories) and therefore has never been a author I care to read.

If Browning and Benelli can get the WSM cartridges to work as well as they do in their semi-autos there can't be a lot of inherent feeding and extraction problems.

As Gatehouse has stated there are always a few problems to be ironed out with anything new and I believe these problems have been addressed with the WSM cartridges.

Everytime I read Terry Wieland, an old quote comes to mind "I am not sure who is right the pessimist or the optimist but at the end of the day the optimist will get more done".

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Omega]

]”

Yet his "Legend" line of rifles are all magnums?





The concept was done far before Jamison came around. He just patented it, which makes good business sense, but the patent maybe shouldnt' have even ben issued, since he certianly wasn't the first to make a "short fat magnum"








So going from 6mm to 7mm or 7.62 makes the concept invalid? Hmmm. *bullshcit* AN increase in 1mm in diameter shoudl have no affect on the concept. Wieland agrees with it for a 6BR but disagrees with it in a 7WSM or 300WSM because it is convenient for his article, and offers NO supporting information to back up his claim that it doens't translate to a larger bore size.



Put the same amount of powder in a 300WM and a 300WSM and the 300WSM will go faster, since the case is smaller and pressure will be higher. That's pretty basic stuff, and I'm surprised Terry doesn't know that.



But the 6BR is more accurate. Hmm.



Sure the pressure is higher. It's why the WSM brass is so damn thick. Again, pretty basic stuff. It's not so high that it's going to blow up your gun though, or we woudl be hearing about it for the last dozen years.



I've had cartridges of every description fail to feed well. Yes, the WSM's were a bit of a challenge at first, but everyone seems to have figured it out now. Every WSM or SAUM I've worked with in the last 5 or 6 years feeds fine. Ironically, one rifle that gave me feeding issues was a 375 H&H! If it wont' feed, look at what is wrong with the rifle. More basic stuff...

(My 300WSM, built by Bill Leeper feeds as smooth as any other rifle.)



I'd have no reservation taking my 300WSM on a grizzly or leopard hunt. But most of us have little knowledge of leopard hunting, so Wieland can get away with throwing that bit in there and accept it as fact.





Sorry guys....The 300 Winchester Long Magnum is out. Too short a neck...



Only if we are going ot agree that ANY time a bullet is seated slightly into the case, in ANY cartridge, the pressures will increase to dangerous levels and all hell will break loose.

PS Jarrets proprietary 300 Jarret has a 35 degree shoulder. Same as the WSM. And it's a "blown out" case with little taper. Same as the WSM...Why no feeding issues with the 300 Jarret?



Winchester should have got it right the first time before introducing the rifles and cartridges at SHOT, but it probably isn't fair to judge all short magnums by the performance of the first rifles/ammo off the production line. Through the years, PLENTY of new cartridges have ben introduced with "hot" velocities and then reworked later when pressure signs have shown up. A memorable one was the 7RM.



Yet the 300 and 270WSM are more and more popular, and many different companies chamber rifles for them.




Lots of great cartridges out there. Some people only like old stuff. Others like to try new stuff too. Some folks dont' like stainless or synthetic. Others don't liek wood and blue.

SOme folks use computers and email, others still hand write letters and attach sufficient postage.

Wieland strikes me as a double rifle/Mauser/wood-blue "traditional" rifle and cartridge type of guy. I wonder what he would say if it was mentioned that the WSM's are really .348 rimless Gradle Express cartridges with sharp instead of rounded shoulders, introduced 60 years ago, and often built on Mauser or Enfield actions?

Probably most important to use whatever works for you and makes you happy. There are millions of WSM rifles being used by happy hunters, that is probably a more important statement than a gun writer with an agenda.

Good on you for taking the time to school chuck.