Steel Shot for Clays

Covey Ridge said:
I think that at first steel target loads may come down to the price of premium target loads and later cheaper loads introduced when the ammo companies compete for your $$dollar$$. At this point I would like to hedge my bet and look into an alternative to betting all or nothing on lead. Anyway, I would rather pay twice as much and reduce my shooting to half than not get to shoot because no one tried to develope a reasonable alternative.
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Canada is a 'drop in the bucket' for ammo. Don't believe for a second that the manufacturers would jump in with a solution for us.

Look at 28ga and .410 ammo. The components should cost less than 12ga/20ga, but due to the low quantity runs, you pay double the cost for the small subgauge ammo.

You say you would rather pay twice as much and reduce your shooting, but what will happen to your club when the overhead stays the same, but the shooting revenues are cut by over half? You may be willing to swallow the difference, but how many others will follow? How long will your club be able to continue operating?

A lead ban WILL be the beginning of the end. Any efforts to enact such a ban should be fought as hard as humanly possible.


Brad.
 
bmcrae said:
Canada is a 'drop in the bucket' for ammo. Don't believe for a second that the manufacturers would jump in with a solution for us.
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I was not thinking about just Canada. Sorry you were! I was thinking about the shot shooting sports in North America. That is big beans and is worth the manufacturers support.
Look at 28ga and .410 ammo. The components should cost less than 12ga/20ga, but due to the low quantity runs, you pay double the cost for the small subgauge ammo.
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What has that got to do with any of this? You are paying big bucks for the small stuff because your sport is not big enough to sell enough ammo. Talk about drop in the bucket? I would suggest that all of the shot gun sports and not just your little sport in your small area, is worth the manufacturers attention. I would suggest that is a revenue that they would not want to loose.

You say you would rather pay twice as much and reduce your shooting, but what will happen to your club when the overhead stays the same, but the shooting revenues are cut by over half? You may be willing to swallow the difference, but how many others will follow? How long will your club be able to continue operating?

A lead ban WILL be the beginning of the end. Any efforts to enact such a ban should be fought as hard as humanly possible.
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You obviously have not read my post and you are stuck in the end of the world thinking? Yes this should be fought as hard as possible, but not to the point of having a slamed shut closed mind.
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To answer the original question, there are clubs and trap loads using steel shot. Here is a link to a fairly recent discussion on Trapshooters.com ...

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/sthread.cfm?threadid=211118

Hunting loads are far greater volume than target loads in North America.

Steel shot will have a dramatic effect on clay target shooting in a very negative way. It will be another big slap to the shooters that have fixed choke guns and or don't want to invest in a new loader / gun, etc. Another large group of shooters will stop shooting and retire the gun to the cabinet.

As Brad indicated, it will leave less of us to carry the load at gun clubs.
 
Covey Ridge said:
bmcrae said:
You obviously have not read my post and you are stuck in the end of the world thinking? Yes this should be fought as hard as possible, but not to the point of having a slamed shut closed mind.
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CR, I know you like to debate. You clearly are not seeing where I am coming from. I won't debate the merits of steel because the point is moot. If lead goes, so do the shooting sports as we know them.

I spend a LOT of time, effort, blood, sweat and tears on this sport. Without lead, this will be stolen away from me. I am not willing to give an inch. I won't concede a single point on the use of steel that would make it sound even remotely as a possible alternative. I have no doubt that I am coming across as unreasonable.

I've watched the last several years as the CFO has shutdown skeet fields in Ontario. Clubs are closing because they can't afford to meet the ridiculous conditions being thrust upon them. I've watched the attendance at my shoots dry up because of CFC's regulations.

I'm tired of getting screwed at every f'ing turn. OK, perhaps I'm being unreasonable, but I'm just playing on the same field as all of these Anti's that keep trying to shut down my game are. We need to hold on to every little thing we have left.

Brad.
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The anxiety, anger, defeatism, appeasement and resignation shown in this thread by various posters (including me) reflects that we see a threat and aren't sure how to manage it.

To prevent a lead ban we need to determine the real impact of lead use at shooting clubs and more importantly on neighbouring property, ground and surface waters, etc. If there is independent, peer-reviewed scientific evidence that shows a problem then let's face reality. But I'm not going to dally with steel for targets under the delusional belief it might make some feel good asswipe greenie go away.

Even if we went to steel shot they'd be onto the environmental impact of the lime and coal tar in targets. Then on to plastic. Then on to the green house gases emitted when a shell is fired. And finally to guns because they think guns are just bad and people shouldn't have them.

So where does this begin for us? I wouldn't look to either the NFA or CSSA. They might pay a little lip service but I don't think for a second that pistol shooters will do much to help clay shooters. The hunting organizations such as OFAH might pay a little lip service but their bigger fight will be the potential of steel in non-waterfowl hunting such as upland and turkey.

I don't have the answer to the questions above but one thing is for damn sure the very instant we start to consider non-toxic shot on our own accord it will become a reality faster than it would otherwise.

I'm with Brad. Don't give an inch. Don't even talk about giving an inch. Don't even think about it.

Think about how to fight the battle and win.
 
bmcrae said:
A lead ban WILL be the beginning of the end. Any efforts to enact such a ban should be fought as hard as humanly possible.


Brad.
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I fully agree!! To start, we as target shooters and hunters should boycot D.U. . They forgot how this orginization started,by sport shooters and hunters like us.
 
The lead ban is scam as far as I'm concerned, but like all knee jerk reactions the government put it place, never to be removed. If D.U. wants to support the lead ban further then it's just another enemy to me.:confused:
Why in heavens sake would you want to start shooting steel out of your shotgun if you don't have to? Practicing for that day to come?:confused:
It's like only loading one shell at a time duck hunting. You can do it! But why?
If you had said that you wanted to see how steel performed in your gun prior to duck season; I would of said this thread has some merit & I wouldn't be b!tching now....:D:stirthepot2:
 
Winchester has steel target ammo that's cheaper than lead. I have never tried it personally, but would imagine a bit of an adjustment on those 50yd shots on SC.
 
Beretta687EELL said:
Steel shot will have a dramatic effect on clay target shooting in a very negative way. It will be another big slap to the shooters that have fixed choke guns and or don't want to invest in a new loader / gun, etc. Another large group of shooters will stop shooting and retire the gun to the cabinet..
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Maybe the ammo companys and the gun companies and the government can get together much like the gov. and the auto companies did and offer a retire your ride kick back or cash for clunkers deal:D
 
bmcrae said:
Covey Ridge said:
OK, perhaps I'm being unreasonable, but I'm just playing on the same field as all of these Anti's that keep trying to shut down my game are. We need to hold on to every little thing we have left.
Brad.
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unreasonable? No Brad, you are standing up for your sport in the way you think best. Your opinion is an opinion shared by many, and I hope no one thinks that I am going to easily give up my cache of lead shot. But to suggest that talking about or thinking about an alternative, is some type of concession, well that is Bull s**t! Over the centuies, humanity has often feared change and as much as they dug in change did come and what evolved was better.
Immediatly to mind is the reduction in international shot gun sports to a 24 gram load.
I hope that with respect to this thread, no one pulls out a label and pastes a differing of opinion as being anti, or liberal or some other bullshuit sticker.
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sherlockbonez said:
Winchester has steel target ammo that's cheaper than lead. I have never tried it personally, but would imagine a bit of an adjustment on those 50yd shots on SC.
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I watched some shooters shooting 5 stand with it and it did a good job on most targets. I never tried it because the range owner made it mandatory and just happend to have ammo for sale at what I thought was an unreasonable price.
 
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The Nickel District Skeet and Trap was once located on a Farm in Chelmsford Ontario and because of a residential build up was forced to move to a outlying area. Before vacating the property, independant soil analysis had to be conducted and the amount of lead found on the property was minimal and well below guidelines.

I hope to bust clays with lead for a long time and will fight anyone who thinks they know better with full force.
 
I am in R.I for the Pilla CLassic Lobster shoot.l So, I need my laptop an not my notebook to be able to post a serious study done by the International Shooting Federation regarding lead and steel shot. Number one, you can even check this out with the NRA ans NSSA/NSCA, lead is NOT a pollutant on the ground. It is a naturaly occuring element. Copper plated shot is killing fish and invertabates! If one puts a penny in an aquarium, ALL fish die! Not so for lead or steel. With steel, the rust makes the water unhospitable. The Belgians now went only for steel. So, they had the Belgian Chanpionship in Orville France, near Amiens. I was there.

Steel shot was used at valcartier militayr base due to the pollution caused by all the explosives testing. The acidity of the residue would cause lead oxide to enter the polluted water table. From nearly 10 years of shooting steel there, ther eare two problems: Solid target breakingis limited to under 30 yards,two,watch out for ricochets!!!!!!!!

Many shooting clubs in England have banned steel target shot, due to the problem of ricochets! BTW Steel target loads in the UK are now cheaper than lead loads

The uniformed that will not do a scientific study, will make up all sorts of things bad about lead. Don't swallow it, don't get shot by it and you are OK!

The Lone Canadian,
Henry;)
 
hnachaj said:
I am in R.I for the Pilla CLassic Lobster shoot.l So, I need my laptop an not my notebook to be able to post a serious study done by the International Shooting Federation regarding lead and steel shot. Number one, you can even check this out with the NRA ans NSSA/NSCA, lead is NOT a pollutant on the ground. It is a naturaly occuring element. Copper plated shot is killing fish and invertabates! If one puts a penny in an aquarium, ALL fish die! Not so for lead or steel. With steel, the rust makes the water unhospitable. The Belgians now went only for steel. So, they had the Belgian Chanpionship in Orville France, near Amiens. I was there.

Steel shot was used at valcartier militayr base due to the pollution caused by all the explosives testing. The acidity of the residue would cause lead oxide to enter the polluted water table. From nearly 10 years of shooting steel there, ther eare two problems: Solid target breakingis limited to under 30 yards,two,watch out for ricochets!!!!!!!!

Many shooting clubs in England have banned steel target shot, due to the problem of ricochets! BTW Steel target loads in the UK are now cheaper than lead loads

The uniformed that will not do a scientific study, will make up all sorts of things bad about lead. Don't swallow it, don't get shot by it and you are OK!

The Lone Canadian,
Henry;)
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Jeez Henry,
I'm certainly no expert, but I think you are being a little soft on lead. It's a heavy metal and it has been removed from a lot of stuff because we don't really want to ingest it, e.g. paint, lead piping, solder and so on. It's going to be hard to get around that. Would you please post an address for the "serious study". It's important and I for one want to read it.
There are many natural elements I wouldn't ingest. So, I don't find that argument of much comfort either. What I am (somewhat) worried about is the 'artificial' increase in concentration that occurs over a limited area with shooting. One really doesn't want to pollute the water table either, any more than one wants to overproduce from it. It's my personal prediction that the cost of this is going to surface more and more over the next 10 or 20 years.
I don't know what to think about the ricochet problem. I know ricochets can occur and I've even been hit by one during pistol shooting indoors. The shot came straight back, which sounds almost impossible. But that's the only way we could explain what happened.
I didn't think ricochets would be much of problem with steel shot though it wouldn't surprise me if it were more severe than with lead. How serious is the problem and what's the evidence supporting the idea it's worth worrying about, apart from wearing safety glasses like we already are?
As for the Belgians, I don't doubt there is going to be a problem changing over and that is what their moving the championship to Amiens suggests to me.
It's apparent from the posts here that there is real resistance to changing. Actually, I don't want to change either, but I'm beginning to wonder if it is even worthwhile worrying about the future of the shooting sports because of the reactions expressed here. Far easier to say nothing, do my shooting, which I still enjoy, and hope I'm gone before the 2nd shoe drops. If all it takes to knock the sport out is a simple technical change like shot type, then the end will come as sure as death and taxes. Heck, maybe the new guys will end up using lasers anyway!
From your post it appears that the US and other countries outside Canada have seen a problem, or are beginning to see one, and are trying to anticipate its effects on our sport.
One thing I would like to add is that there is a source of 'personal' lead 'pollution' that you don't hear much about. I did participate in an informal measurement of lead concentration on protective masks while shooting indoors years ago. We wanted to know how much lead we were ingesting in our range. I was quite shocked by the results. (The situation is quite different than most shotgun shooting, whichoccurs outdoors, of course. But there is still a point here.) One needs a very good ventilation system to take care of the indoor problem and I am personally aware of a new indoor range that was not approved some years back due to ineffective ventilation. I am training my breathing now to ensure that I don't ingest by-products from my shotgun when shooting, much as I do with casting, and as I did with welding masks years ago. Unfortunately I have liked the smell of fired shotshells since I was a kid hunting with my dad and I have a tendency to breath in after shooting sometimes. Maybe it doesn't matter so much in an older f*rt like me, but it might matter a lot with youngsters. Just wait until mothers start keeping there kids from shooting because the air is bad :D!!! So it goes...fred
 
ssbn506 said:
Their are a few studies out their.
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a778060709
It is not free unfortunately and it is only one study I found so by know means a scientific consensus.

I am always very skeptical of outright banes on anything. They tend to be based on ideology and not the science. Now I am not saying it wont happen our world loves ideology.
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x2 I think it will happen and for one of two reasons. Either the lead is a problem, as this abstract suggests, and awareness of the problem will increase. In this case, when we are convinced it is a problem we should switch over to steel, because it is the right thing to do, or we should come up with a way of removing the lead effectively and support the activity, because it is the right thing to do. Alternatively, it will come up as some misinformed ideological attack in which the so called 'facts' will be used against our sport. The thing that struck me about registration of long guns, for example, was the fact that no one, except us, appeared to care that the registry would not reduce crime. We should be ready for either eventuality if we care about our sport. We should also be in the lead (sorry:redface:) on issues concerning our sport, rather than behind the times and hiding because we think something could be wrong.
 
The study suggest in the abstract the lead levels are high and that isn't a surprise. When you test the ground around a gass station you find high levels of gass and oil in the ground. The question is will it affect the surroundings outside the range and is a problem. If it is getting into the water table or all the animals in a 5 mile range are diyng of led poisning we have a problem. But I am willing to bet that is not the case.

My question would be what is the conclusion of the study. Higher lead levels probably just men don't plant a guardian on that property or open a playground.
 
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Here is another by the USAF.

http://www.p2pays.org/ref/07/06040.htm

Not a study but interesting. Talks about the the Green Bullets program.

It also looks like there could be a scientific consensus.

"The petition references almost 500 scientific studies, most of which have been peer-reviewed, that illustrate the widespread dangers from lead ammunition and fishing tackle.

"The science on this issue is massive in breadth and unimpeachable in its integrity," said George Fenwick, president of American Bird Conservancy. "Hundreds of peer-reviewed studies show continued lead poisoning of large numbers of birds and other animals, and this petition is a prudent step to safeguard wildlife and reduce unacceptable human health risks." "
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2010/2010-08-03-091.html

From the same article
"But the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the trade association for the firearms, ammunition, hunting and shooting sports industry, today announced its opposition to the petition.

"There is simply no scientific evidence that the use of traditional ammunition is having an adverse impact on wildlife populations that would require restricting or banning the use of traditional ammunition beyond current limitations, such as the scientifically based restriction on waterfowl hunting," said NSSF President Steve Sanetti. "
 
BCFred, your experience from shooting indoors is nothing comparable to shotgunning. The problem with lead indoors is that it's being breathed in as you say, partly from disintegrating bullets, but mostly from the primers. Changing to steel shot doesn't change what is in the primer anyway, and it's outdoors.

None of your experience from indoor ranges has anything to do with how lead acts laying on the dirt on a trap range.

About the only environmental damage I've seen around our trap range, is the gophers, and I guarantee it's lead poisoning getting to them, but it's not from the shot on the ground.
 
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