Fake or Fact - My Nazi Marked Mosin M44

In my opinion it's a fake. There are lots ot "tells" that show it's fake-ness, but the easiest is that there is absolutely way there would be three firing proofs on the receiver. There would be one at most, and usually none. most legit captures are only proofed once on the underside of the wrist.

People that buy this stuff probably also believe there is still a Santa Clause.

That being said, I doubt Marstar faked it - it was probably faked long before they ever got it. The story that it came on a pallet is just that - an unverifyable story.
 
Captured rifle?

To Quote Smellie

If this rifle were built on, say, January 8, it would have had 4 whole months to get to the Front, get lost, captured, sent to the rear, checked over by the armourer there, have little chickens stamped all over it. "Ve haff PROZEDURES, yes?" And so the job was done, exactly and strictly by the Regulations.

And, hey! An essential job inspecting and stamping captured weapons was rather to be preferred to being shoved into the Volkssturm or an Einheitsbattalion and sent East. Just do the job, Fritz, just do the job!
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One thing I have noticed on a lot of these posts is the speculation of what could or what could not have happened. I have seen a lot of weird and wonderful things stamped on rifles and other equipment, so I am going to hold my own thoughts on this one.

One thing we should all realize though, is that a lot of people are thinking in context of TODAY, and what would happen now in North America. We have to think about Who and What at the Time. We have a much more tolerant society in North America than in Europe, especially in the time frame involved. Life was strictly controlled and regimented before WW2 in Germany and other European Countries. Things were not questioned, there were Procedures, and everything was recorded, documented, and carried out, no matter how silly or absurd it was. The ordinary person did not question AUTHORITY.

If you told an average Canadian or American Infantryman to "take a Grenade and charge that Tank out there," you would probably have been told what part of his anatomy you could kiss, or an even more obscene suggestion. A German told that would have grabbed a Grenade and took off to try to accomplish what he had been told to do, no matter how absurd the chance of success.

Even so, human nature and self preservation is another factor. If you got sent to the Russian Front, your life expectancy is about two weeks. If you have a nice rear area job, such as Armourer, then you made yourself "essential" by doing your job and keeping a low profile. All these captured weapons, the "Book" says they have to be marked and identified, so it is your job to do it. It's right there, Chapter and Verse.

What it comes down to is "Mindset" of the time and period. These are the rules and regulations. They WILL be followed. Never mind the fact that there is a T-34 and a bunch of Ivans at the outskirts of town, YOU will do your job.

The Germans of that time frame were a very Regimented people. Do your job, follow orders of people in Authority, and dont question anything.

Yes, the War in Europe ended on May 8, 1945. But, as pointed out, very few people knew it was going to end on that particular day, especially some low ranking NCO or Officer in a rear area. To justify his job and stay safe, he would have just continued to do what the Book told him to do.
 
My problem with the whole "man doing his job" argument is that if I look at a pre-war K98 every part is stamped and numbered to the rifle. As the war progresses there is a steady decline in the number of stamps that appear on the rifles as quality control gives way to speed of production. Yet here we have a rifle that was captured in the last months of the war that someone has gone out of their way to give lots of markings.

Then there is the fact that millions of other Soviet rifles were captured in the early stages of the war when the Germans did have time to process them so there should be a catalogue of reliable examples to compare against; yet there doesn't appear to be one.

And finally by 1945 the Germans weren't in a position to be capturing enough rifles to be sending them to the rear for processing. Their logistics were failing and they were in full retreat loosing tons of their own equipement that they were struggling to replace.
 
The conclusion is that we will never know with 100% certainty. Knowing the army, knowing the time period, almost anything is possible - even if it isn't probable or even believable to some.

No matter who marked the rifle, it only adds to the story and history behind it and it should be appreciated as such.

A truly great find!
 
bas said:
And finally by 1945 the Germans weren't in a position to be capturing enough rifles to be sending them to the rear for processing. Their logistics were failing and they were in full retreat loosing tons of their own equipement that they were struggling to replace.
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It is hard to capture rifles when you are being pulverised.
 
I don't know why I bother with these threads. You just can never convince some people the sky is blue.

FACT: After 1944, No german weaponry - even new manufacture - had tripple WaA marks on the receiver ring.

FACT: No documented capture has ever had three firing proofs on the receiver.

FACT: M44's saw so little use on the front line prior to hostilities that the chances the Germans captured any quantity is exceedingly small.

FACT: Nearly all the inspection emplyees of the WaffenAmpt (all military personnel) had been recalled to their units as the situation became even more desperate. In most cases, captured rifles received NO WaA inspection after mid-1944.

I don't know what more to say??? If it smells like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and the stamps aren't even authentic looking or in the right places - it's a fake. Period.

Go try to get your money back.
 
skirsons said:
Another thought: if it was reblued by the faker it would have been a rather extensive project as the grease would have had to been cleaned off, the rifle reblued, then grease put back on and aged for a few years at least. This is why I believe the rifle has its original metal finish although it is surprizingly new looking.
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Its wasnt reblued by the faker/whoever applied those stamps. Look at the reciever eagle stamp and the designation. Notice the "white" around the stamp? thats the disturbance to the blueing from the stamp. The rifle was blued (whenever it was made), AND THEN the stamps applied from what it seems. I was saying that the blueing is of good quality, typically what you see on a post war carbine or very, very late war.

This alone leads me to suspicion as a rifle made this late in the game would not have seen the front, had time to be captured and sent to the rear for proofing etc... If it were a "battlefield pick up" and used by the Germans, it wouldnt be stamped in any way period. Its not like the individual troops carried the stamps in their pockets!

The grease is standard cosmoline. Could have been put on by anybody at any time. Very typical of Soviet weapons of any era in Russia or out. Just because a rifle dosnt have refurb marks does not mean it isnt a refurb in any way. There are many different forms of refurbishment. For example, Finn captured weapons typically had the SA added, possibly renumbered parts, sometimes a D stamp and at times a "44" stamp. Aside from this and possible restocking or repairs, there are no "refurb" marks. However these weapons were certainly refurbed. Most people see refurb as shiney red shellac, the box with a line stamp, post war stocks (typically), dull reblue, electropencil etc... This is only one example of a refurb and does not indicate a rifle void of these features to be an all original, matching piece. This dosnt look like a standard Ukrainian refurb to me, Im just saying.
 
The fact is these carbines have been recognized as fakes by the Mosin-Nagant collector's community for years. Improper markings, wrong number of markings. wrong location, plus several 1946 dated ones have surface from this lot. Buy the rifle and not the story.
 
bas said:
My problem with the whole "man doing his job" argument is that if I look at a pre-war K98 every part is stamped and numbered to the rifle. As the war progresses there is a steady decline in the number of stamps that appear on the rifles as quality control gives way to speed of production. Yet here we have a rifle that was captured in the last months of the war that someone has gone out of their way to give lots of markings.

Then there is the fact that millions of other Soviet rifles were captured in the early stages of the war when the Germans did have time to process them so there should be a catalogue of reliable examples to compare against; yet there doesn't appear to be one.

And finally by 1945 the Germans weren't in a position to be capturing enough rifles to be sending them to the rear for processing. Their logistics were failing and they were in full retreat loosing tons of their own equipement that they were struggling to replace.
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BAS, I think you hit the nail on the head here, Claven2 also brings up some good solid points. I'm not buying that whole authority mindset arguement either, and it definitly doesn't explain the excessive stamping. Also, their are plenty accounts of German soldiers not following orders and in those last months even the SS knew the war was nearing an end and soldiers attempted to leave the Eastern front to surrender to the Americans in the West. Next someone is going to try to explain that German soldiers were not people but actually robots?
 
Well, I have a couple Polish wz.29 that were captured by the Germans in 1939. Both were re-arselanled by the Germans, serial numbers added to unnumbered parts, parts renumbered if required, white parts blued, etc. There did not add any Waa marks to the metal, no inspection marks, or firing proofs. All that was added was a WaaHzWA mark on the stock to show that it was refurbed. If they didn't have the time in 1940 prior to invading France to mark up the metal, why would they have time in 1945? They didn't even have time to mark their own guns that much in 1945.

Second, there are 2 types of Waa marks. Waa### or Eagle over a swastica. The Waa is a quality inspection mark on the parts. The number is the factory - such as Waa623 is Steyr. All it means is that the part is fit for service after manufacture. The Eagle over a swastica is a firing/acceptance proof, meaning the firearm was tested and is fit for use by the troops.

That said, I would only expect 1 eagle over swastica mark on the receiver, as I've seen on other capture weapons. The fact that there are Waa214 markings would indicate they were manufacured in: Die Berlin-Lübecker Maschinenfabriken Lübeck - which is definatly not the case.

I also recall reading that captured weapons would only be marked by the armorours in the field when/if repaired. For example, if a captured SVT failed in combat, and was given to the armourer to repair, after the repair he tested it to see if it would fire, then put an acceptance mark on it to show it was repaired. So these markings are quite rare, and always suspect.

With that, sorry, but my vote is on fake.

The bolt looks ok to me though.
 
Ah, thats why they look weird. A Waa on metal should be is Eagle over Waa63, not Eagle over swastica over Waa63.

Waffen.jpg


So Eagle over Swastica over a Waa214 doesn't even look right to me.


Eagle over Swastica over a Waa63 would be fine on a K98 stock though.
 
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i think its real, i have nothing to go on but ive seen all sorts of weapons with all sorts of marks on them from yugoslavia. they had thousands of weapons from every corner of the world stockpiled. who knows if this is real or fake, none of us were there.
 
JP said:
The fact is these carbines have been recognized as fakes by the Mosin-Nagant collector's community for years. Improper markings, wrong number of markings. wrong location, plus several 1946 dated ones have surface from this lot. Buy the rifle and not the story.
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I'm in the fake camp too. I would trust JP's opinion.
 
Lots of great replies here. From some very knowledgeable people. Same thing with a Nazi stamped Lee Enfield, on Milsurps Knowledge site.
The rifle on MK, comes from a very reputable fellow as well. He has absolutely no need to fake it.
When those M44 and M38 rifles, were being sold by International, I think, they were anywhere from $30, fair to good - $100 excellent.

I really can't see anyone going through the bother to stamp them. Not much later, you couldn't give a Mosin of any description away. That was right after the cheap surplus ammunition dried up. Never say never, when it comes to milsurps.

I will admit, there are obvious fakes out there but take a look at the OP pics. All of the wear and rust, are on the same level. As far as the hex receiver, the Soviets, were putting together anything they could get their hands on to go bang. That isn't, by far the first M44 or M38 I've seen with a hex receiver. They did what they had to do to arm their troops. The Germans did the same thing. Some got stamped, some didn't. That isn't unusual or a mystery.

In the US, right now, unless you have CMP or factory provenance, no one will accept a milsurp rifle of US manufacture as being real. All I can say, is give your head a shake. Unless there is some fairly substantial monetary gain or a huge ego to aswage, there isn't any reason to make these modifications to a milsurp.
 
desporterizer said:
There was no real financial advatage to bending & bluing bolts on carcanos either but it was done & marketed as something special.
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Carcanos! Now those rifles were used in the thousands by Volkssturm and Volksgrenadier units in Germany late in the war. Great little rifle actually...

I would love to say the M44 is real, but I just can't... They were barely putting any stamps at all on their '45 dated K98's, G43's etc in the last months either...

But, I would still hold on to it if I were you. You never know what info may come out in the future to prove its provenance! :)
 
I've seen a number of Lee Enfields with german stamps in the Ottawa area. this is the first time I see a Mosin with such stamps. I also know of 2 individuals in Eastern Ontario with a series of German stamps including SS.

Like has been presviously stated......buy the gun...not the story.

Caveat emptor
 
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