1885 Metis weapons?

Nyles

Nyles

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Has anyone seen a reliable breakdown or overview of the weapons used by Metis forces in the 1885 rebellion? I once saw a very good breakdown of Sioux weapons from the Little Bighorn and I'm wondering if anything similar is available for weapons captured at Batoche? I'm pretty well versed in what the Canadian militia was using, but the Metis are a giant question mark.

I imagine trade muskets were still fairly well-represented, but how many Metis would have owned more modern weapons at that point? There's a Spencer and half of a Henry in the Royal Winnipeg Rifles museum that belonged to senior Metis leaders but I doubt that can be called representative of the majority. I don't imagine pistols were very prevalent, since they'd be no good for hunting, but I'd be interested to be proved wrong.

So does anyone have any solid information?
 
my mother is a geneologist and Metis historian and frequently travels to the red river settlement and Batoche as well for events pertaining to our culture. I can see what she knows on the subject.... but she's away on a cruise for a few more weeks.
 
The Honourable Louis Riel, MP, Father of Confederation, United States Citizen, Victim of Judicial Murder, had a Snider Carbine. I had it in my hands when I was about 16. It was owned at that time by Jack Gilling, who was the jeweller and watchmaker down at Boissevain, just North of the US border.

There was some controversy over the rifle, some folks saying that if you found an old rifle with LR in the wood, it stood for the Lone Ranger! I saw it and held it and all I can say is that anything done to the rifle I was holding had been done a long time ago. Besides, he had pretty good provenance on the critter.

Some people said that he had faked the gun in order to make money, but this ignores four little points: 1. Jack Gilling already HAD all the money he wanted, 2. he never tried to make money from the thing at all, 3. Sniders at that time were worthless; if Gilling had had the Snider AND Louis Riel, he might have been offered 10 bucks for the pair, and 4. he didnt want to keep it.

Gilling tried to GIVE the rifle to the Manitoba Museum but the experts there told him that, (1) there was NO historical evidence that Louis Riel even owned a firearm of any kind, (2) being a religious man, he certainly would not have wanted one or needed one or had any use for one, (3) they certainly had no use for some old GUN.

This ignores a couple of little facts:
1. Greenpeace had not yet been founded,
2. Brian Davies and the IFAW still were many years (although not enough) in the future,
3. PETA stood for People Eat Tasty Animals, and
4. Louis Riel is known to have been a buffalo hunter.

Gilling himself was convinced of the authenticity of the carbine. I know that he was offered over $100 for it by several people and refused to sell. The price of a decent Snider Carbine at that time was between $3 and $5.

I believe the Riel carbine is in a museum today, but it was a long and hard road to get it there. Gilling believed that it should be on display for everyone to see and he worked hard for many years to get it there.

As for myself, I think that holding that little rifle was one of the things which conspired to turn me into a gun collector.

As far as the 'rebels' were concerned, it didn't really matter a lot what rifles they had. The NWMP stopped all sales of ammunition in the PA area (unless you were white and had a good reason) while Riel was still attempting to get a hearing from Ottawa: several weeks BEFORE there was any rebellion. The Army was raised and shipped a thousand miles and was at Kenora before a Conservative Party organiser fired the first shot of the 'war'.

It is odd, though...... I remember meeting an old man in the Summer of 1957. He had been just a kid at the time of the Rebellion and he told me that his father, along with a lot of other people out here, had deliberately kept out of it. He said that the country (out here) was split three ways: pro-Government, neutral and pro-Riel. The people were waking up to the fact that they were being shafted by Canada, by the Customs, by the manufacturers in Ontario and by the CPR, all at the same time, and they didn't like it one bit.

That was 125 years ago..... and still nothing has changed.

But I will always remember Louis Riel's Snider Carbine.
 
On the other side of the coin, one of the two canon's used by Canadian Military, against Lois Riel's forces, ended up being, through barter, owned by a Ottawa area resident, who told me that the local officers club had for years, this canon sitting outside the club, but was more interested in one of the machine guns in his collection, and without either sides knowing the Canadian historical value of this particular canon, a barter deal was made, and the canon made a new home, and after shooting frozen oranges and beer cans with concrete for few years, the the new owner decided to do some research on this canon, and to his surprise found that it was indeed one of the two canons used against Lois Riel's forces.
 
There is a dealer in SK which has listed on its website a "musket .80 cal used at Batoche by Metis". I know nothing more about it than that, other than they want $4k for it.
 
Nyles said:
Has anyone seen a reliable breakdown or overview of the weapons used by Metis forces in the 1885 rebellion? I once saw a very good breakdown of Sioux weapons from the Little Bighorn and I'm wondering if anything similar is available for weapons captured at Batoche? I'm pretty well versed in what the Canadian militia was using, but the Metis are a giant question mark.

I imagine trade muskets were still fairly well-represented, but how many Metis would have owned more modern weapons at that point? There's a Spencer and half of a Henry in the Royal Winnipeg Rifles museum that belonged to senior Metis leaders but I doubt that can be called representative of the majority. I don't imagine pistols were very prevalent, since they'd be no good for hunting, but I'd be interested to be proved wrong.

So does anyone have any solid information?
Click to expand...

Not to hijack your thread but, speaking of the Little Big Horn, I had the pleasure handling the saddle bag gun that belonged to Lt. W.W. Cooke, Custer's Adjutant at the LBH. Cooke was a Canadian from Hamilton, ON. The pistol, holster with his name on it and his farrier's knife also with his name on it, were recovered by the NWMP from a Sioux Warrior when they came into Canada to escape the US Army in 1877. The gun in question was a .44 Remington cap and ball revolver. The NWMP returned the items to US authorities who in turn gave them to the Cooke family in Hamilton. During April, 1999, Bud Haynes Auction at Red Deer, Ab. was auctioning these items off. Blake Cooke, great nephew of Lt. Cooke was selling these items. Blake was 74 at the time of sale and was residing at Watrous, SK.

I went to the sale and saw Blake with the items in his hands talking to a US Cavalryman reenactor from Calgary. I went up to Blake and asked if I could handle the gun and he handed it to me. The gun, holster and knife went for $60,000 CDN to a US buyer named Art Unger from Hicksville, New York (yes, it's a real place).

Now, the question someone is going to ask is, why would he carry a cap and ball revolver when they were issued cartridge revolvers. The 1873 Colt revolver was developed in that year however it wasn't until 1874 before they were issued out to the western army. What a lot of them did was instead of tossing their old cap and ball, they kept it as a back up gun aka a saddle bag gun. Let's face it, if that cap and ball served you through the Civil War and 9 years in the west after that, why not just keep it in your saddle bag.

Not sure if Blake Cooke is still with us however, if he is he would be 85 now.
 
Could you PM me the name of the dealer? I'm not interested in buying it, just looking to learn as much as I can on the subject.

The Louis Riel Snider is interesting - I'd have to go back to be sure, as it's been years, but I believe the RWR museum claims either the Spencer or the Henry as Riel's. I know they have his walking stick, but I'd have to check the provenence of the rifle (it may also have been Gabriel Dumont's, come to think of it).
 
smellie said:
Gilling tried to GIVE the rifle to the Manitoba Museum but the experts there told him that, (1) there was NO historical evidence that Louis Riel even owned a firearm of any kind, (2) being a religious man, he certainly would not have wanted one or needed one or had any use for one, (3) they certainly had no use for some old GUN.

This ignores a couple of little facts:
1. Greenpeace had not yet been founded,
2. Brian Davies and the IFAW still were many years (although not enough) in the future,
3. PETA stood for People Eat Tasty Animals, and
4. Louis Riel is known to have been a buffalo hunter.
Click to expand...

I've said it before :( , but I'll say it again: history is - incredibly sadly - being altered by the agenda(s) of those who are anti-firearm.......:mad:
 
Here is the info on the musket that was for sale I did an inquiry on it.
IT IS SOLD! percussion cap. Good shape for its age. Fireable. There is a written record only in recent times. Before that it was verbal history, and kept in the same family near Batoche for about 90 years. Story goes that it was a Canadian Military musket from the 1850's and it has*soldier's name carved in the stock. When breechloaders came to the Cdn military these went to the locals and into canoes in the 1870's. A local young Prince Albert lawyer owned it and went the first day to the Batoche Rebellion. He was using it when he was killed at Batoche as one of the*first 8 militiamen that were killed there on the first day. It was taken off the battlefield by the*Metis and the Metis side used it for the rest of the Rebellion. it was fired using*nails, cut up wire, etc. when ammunition ran out at Batoche for the Metis.
 
Since it's about Canadian history, I wonder what happened to the weapons those drunk Irishmen tried to invade Canada with. (Fenians)

Rule one, if you are going to invade somewhere, DO NOT stop at the pub first!;)
 
Story

Hope you don't consider this a thread hijack, but the Cooke revolver was mentioned. I was at that sale, and told Bud Haines that I was going to own that revolver. He looked at me funny, because I am more interested in modern Military firearms. I made one bid for $32,000. After the sale, Bud questioned me on it, and I told him that I did own it......for about 25 seconds until someone made the next bid.

The interesting thing was that Bud Haines thought that the knife accompanying the Remington was a bit rare, and worth almost the same amount as the pistol.

So, it is not only about the guns at Batoche, there are other things too that are of historical value.
 
Green beat me to it, Dumont and the Ballard, at least some of the Metis were better equipped then the Gov. troops, and would still be today!!
 
This my answer to Post #3, Who,s author seems to consider the traitorous leader a hero. Louis Riel was a traitor, Who like all terrorists should be.. Was killed, we should have put the Traitor head on a post and shot all his followers that surrendered, He is NO Canadian Hero, He is and was a TERRORIST as were his gang of TRAITORS. Who give a flying F... What he and his low life scum followers carried for arms
 
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Maybe Riel was like some of us,believed that the rest of the country was out of step, and wanted to be part of something better! Maybe, like some of us, the cause was worth more then the orig. country, kinda like gun ownership now, and I think we should push for Western Sep. if the registry doesn't go and / or the Libs. return to power. Maybe, like in Riel's day, the folks have had enough!!!!!!
 
ben hunchak said:
maybe riel was like some of us,believed that the rest of the country was out of step, and wanted to be part of something better! Maybe, like some of us, the cause was worth more then the orig. Country, kinda like gun ownership now, and i think we should push for western sep. If the registry doesn't go and / or the libs. Return to power. Maybe, like in riel's day, the folks have had enough!!!!!!
Click to expand...

+++1
 
It really does not matter what opinion I may have of Riel; the facts speak for themselves.

Louis "David" Riel might have been a self-proclaimed prophet, but then so was Gautama the Buddha, so was Jesus Christ and so was the Prophet Mohammed. So was Peter Veregin, if you want to go that far. One man's prophet is another man's heretic and all too often people fight over what they are called and don't bother listening to what they say.

Louis Riel was an elected Member of Parliament, so he is entitled to the MP and the title The Honourable.

Louis Riel was, if anyone, the Founder of Manitoba. It was his little rebellion at Fort Garry which resulted in The Manitoba Act of 1870, with Manitoba coming into Canada as anything except yet another colony for the East to plunder and with Manitoba being recognised as having for the basis of its legal system the Common Law.

At the time if the 1885 Rebellion, Louis Riel was a sworn Citizen of the United States of America. As he came to Canada and helped in an armed uprising against the MacDonald Government, he likely was guilty of the worst in the book at that time: Raising Rebellion was the charge and the maximum term of imprisonment was 15 years. MacDonald, however, wanted Riel DEAD. The obvious solution was to have Riel tried for TREASON, for which the penalty was death. In order to do this, the judge had to overlook the inconvenient little FACT that Riel was a citizen of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Riel was hanged by an Order of the Court. His death, therefore, amounts to JUDICIAL MURDER. The RCMP at one time proudly displayed a hank of the rope with which this Canadian Patriot was hanged. I saw it before it was hidden away.

The death of Riel split Canada along political, linguistic, cultural, religious and racial lines for more than a century. But it is THANKS TO Riel that Western Canada even became Provinces. The original idea was to keep the entire West as Ontario's colony, as something to be exploited, period. That anything else has come about largely is due to Louis Riel.

I am not French. I do not speak French (to my regret). I am not a Roman Catholic. I am not Metis or a Half-Breed or an Indian, although 2 out of 3 of these terms now are politically incorrect (they actually mean very different things). But I have stood at Louis Riel's grave and thanked him, and I have said a prayer for him.... as I have done for all those others who died for what they believed was RIGHT.

History will be Louis Riel's ultimate judge. Not me.

.

BTW, the judgement of an historical character can undergo some pretty strange mutations over the years. Go to the library and order in a copy of THE JUDGEMENTS OF JOAN by Charles Wayland Lightbody. It is a study of the changing of the social and political views on Joan of Arc in the FIRST 20 years following her execution for doing what she thought was RIGHT..... against the Governing Power of the period. Dr. Lightbody's daughter, Susan, did the Notes for the second volume of her father's work and also wrote the third volume, which brings us up to date, more or less, on this one important historical figure.

FWIW.
.
 
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