Smokless in a BP

notsorichguy

notsorichguy

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I have heard some 'accounts' of using pistol powder in rifles and pistols designed for black powder firearms.

I'm not talking about 45/70 type firearms, but rather Muzzle Loader type firearms.

I have tried using google search as well as the search function on 'nutz' to see if this a new development or an old one and I cannot seem to find any mention of this anywhere.

I have heard of guys using smokless in old cap & ball type pistols, and I also understand that Pyrodex or any of the other BP substitutes are technically 'smokless' powders......

That said, I am wanting to open a Theoretical discussion about wether or nor it is 'theoretically' possible to use fast burning pistol powders in a BP ML type firearm. I have a few questions, specifically I was wondering what kind of pressures are reached with BP vs lil'gun, trail boss, 700x or some other?

For instance, take my ML a 20" barreled TC pro hunter. Currently I shoot 150gr of 777 pellets behind a 300gr sabot bullet. What does quick load say my pressure is? and by extension what would the pressure be if I tried to achieve the same velocity with a faster burning pistol powder? What would be the velocity if I tried to match the pressure?

Now I'm not really keen on trying this out. That said if this all turns out to be feasible I could be convinced to try it out...... Right now I'm thinking someone was blowing smoke........

Cheers!
 
I also understand that Pyrodex or any of the other BP substitutes are technically 'smokless' powders......
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BP substitutes are NOTHING like smokeless powders. Don't know where you heard this but it is pure unadulterated BS.

I have heard some 'accounts' of using pistol powder in rifles and pistols designed for black powder firearms.
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Would you put gasolene into a diesel engine? Do you think that it might be a good idea to try it? Same kind of thing with smokeless in a muzzle loader and with probably similar results.
 
HOLY CRAP!!!!! Gear down!

This is a THEORETICAL DISCUSSON!

Everybody knows that it can't/shouldn't be done. We have been told so for a REALLY LONG TIME!

But people are DOING IT! WITH NO ILL EFFECTS (if the stories I have heard are to be believed).

I'm just curious what the pressures involved really are? I'm sure someone with quick load or some such can tell us.....

People have been using smokless powders in BP cartridge guns for a while now. Cruise over to BLACK POWDER & MUZZLE LOADERS and they even have a stickie!

The only reason I used my ML as an example was because that is all I am familiar with when it comes to BP. Heck I have never even used 'real BP', I've always used 777.....

As for my comment about pyrodex being a 'smokless powder' here is my 'source'. It's in the first paragraph.

ht tp://www.chuckhawks.com/smokeless_powder_muzzleloading.htm
 
Maintaining consistent loads would be ever so important, considering how a little thing like COL changes pressures. I've heard of Savage being the only muzzle loader strong enough to take the pressure - and this is only if everything is done right. Pushing a .50 cal bullet at high velocity will give new range and energy but a Savage is not cheap to start with and other "costs" may be high.
 
Are you trying to minimize fouling or increase velocity. If you want to minimize fouling, look up some cast bullet 45 LC loads and start from there. Remember to mark your ramrod to set the "OAL" by seating to the correct depth. Also, remember that a 209 "primer" is WAY hotter than a pistol primer. It might be a good time to think about doing a .25ACP "primer" conversion.

Of course it can be done. BP rifles like the 45-70, 44-40 and 50-90 shoot smokeless all the time.

Smokeless powders produce generally 3 times the gas volume of BP by weight. 777 produces about 15% more gas volume than BP by weight and burns just slightly slower. Your smokeless loads will generate a lot more gas volume but most of it doesn't push the bullet. This is because you should be using a SLOW powder for best velocities.

I regularly put a little smokeless in with my BP loads as it seems to help with accuracy. I use 3 grains of tightwad on TOP of 100 grains of FFg 777. Duplex loads should always have the smokeless on top. You might want to play with duplex loads before trying a pure smokeless load. You might just accomplish your goal with a lot less work.

If you want to try a straight smokeless load in your BP rifle, I would suggest you get a ball puller and try roundballs first. The worst that can happen is you'll make some squibs. If you're using a fast pistol or shotgun powder, you're going to end up with probably a subsonic load or just barely supersonic. You should use a smokeless lube rather than anything designed for BP.

Load data for a 50-120 or 50-140 sharps might be a good starting point for a general purpose load. Remember that the SD of a sabotted load will be different than a 50 cal bullet of the same weight. I would use swaged bullets for initial testing. You can probably substitute the data for a swaged bullet of the same SD as your sabbotted bullet and get more or less the same pressure if not lower - I'm not sure on that 100%.

A black powder muzzleloader that can handle 120 grains for FFFg 777 should be able to handle 25ksi (about 20000CUP) easily. Bullet weight doesn't contribute to pressure with BP nearly as much as it does with smokeless.

Since OAL is an important factor (pressure-wise) with smokeless, it would be prudent to maybe make a stop on the ramrod (that can be adjusted with a thumbscrew or some such) to produce the desired OAL when loading. OAL shouldn't affect accuracy in the slightest since a muzzleloader has no throat. Your bullet is stuck on the lands no matter where you seat it. This means pressures will be higher than any load data you look up. It also means that you should select a powder that works well with the OAL you end up using. If you increase the "chamber" size of a load with a powder that is too fast, you will reach max pressure before attaining the same velocity you should with a smaller chamber. Vice-versa to a point. You aren't going to see any pressure signs except leading so be careful. Purchasing a pressure transducer might be a worthwhile investment.

Here's some load data I'm making a lot of assumptions about.
95 grains of H4350 behind a 400 grain bullet with a 3.8 inch "OAL" should make a nice bang for about 2000 FPS.
10 grains of trailboss behind a 370 conical with a 2 inch "OAL" looks to be a nice subsonic load.
DON'T TRY THIS DATA UNLESS YOU HAVE A TEST BARREL AND A WAY TO REMOTELY FIRE FROM A SAFE BUNKER

The biggest thing about the warning on BP rifles not to use smokeless is that if you accidentally use a smokeless powder directly as a black powder substitute, (in a BP measure and without being intelligent about it at all) you're looking for big trouble. Be smart about it and it will likely work out just fine.
 
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To anyone reading this thread; bigslide does NOT know what he's talking about, and is offering advice and assumptions that go against those of every powder and firearms manufacturer.

That post above is disaster waiting to strike. You can tell right from the very beginning, where he states the .375 H&H as a black powder round, which it NEVER has been. Cordite and black powder have NOTHING in common either, comparing loads of the two is asinine. Cordite was an early smokeless, with about as much in common with black powder and its pressure as a duck has in common with a buffalo.

NEVER, EVER use smokeless in a muzzle loader unless the manufacturer recommends it. Yes, I'm sure there are people in Georgia doing it without two brain cells to rub together, and they might continue to get away with it. Just because there are a group of people stupid enough to try it does NOT mean you should, or even talk about it for that matter. Theoretical discussions of this kind are seldom theoretical.
 
"NEVER, EVER use smokeless in a muzzle loader unless the manufacturer recommends it."

That's just not good enough, unless the reasons are known, proven and explained. Here as expected, any attempt to do that has been shouted down. The "Blackpowder guys" are champs at shutting down the possibility of any discussion with such gems as "because it was designed for Blackpowder that's why".

I faced the same opposition when I first started loading the Swiss Vetterli, Snider Enfield and Martini-Henry - all guns designed for blackpowder. I have been happily loading them with smokeless for a few years now. Mind you, those are "Black Powder Cartridge Rifles", not muzzleloaders, so you're working with different parameters, and much less room to screw up than with a muzzleloader, but those guns (for example) are frequently safely loaded (i.e. carefully and intelligently) with smokeless powder, despite that being impossible in some minds.

There's no reason why you can't contrive a safe smokeless load for a muzzleloader. If you disagree then please offer some thoughtful proof and explain how others have done the impossible.
 
I believe that the difference is in the lockup, old cartridge rifles have quite good lockup systems although the materials are older and not as strong. Modern M.L.s use a threaded plug as the "lock up", not something that I would trust with charges of smokeless powders. Anyways, whatever you decide...bombs away!!
 
I'll be the first to say that you are probably better off shooting a Savage if you want to shoot smokeless.
Haveing gotten that out of the way, there's scads of cartridges that successfully made the transition from black to smokeless. The 45 Colt and 45/70 immediately come to mind. There are also fairly standard nitro for black conversions out there that get a lot of old cartridge guns going bang again without a lot of fuss.
When you start sailing in uncharted waters, you must decide if the gains are worth the risk. With the modest price of a Savage, and the not prohibitive price of the smokeless customs is it worth it? Betting your eyes and fingers against $600 doesn't make much sense. I won't do it.
 
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a bad idea to run smokeless in a muzzleloader, and even with the Savage 10ML (which I own), you need to be careful with your loads (as you do with any smokeless load), PLUS, you have loading depth (i.e. OAL) to be concerned with. With the Savage, you load it with specific powders that work well with the bullet tight on top of them, and the action is designed to withstand the pressures generated.

What I protest is the blanket: "It can't be done". With weaker muzzleloaders you'd need to choose a powder and load that respected the strength of the action, AND you'd need a way to very precisely seat the bullet over the powder - too close or too far spells trouble.

For example, with a 45 cal muzzleloader with a working pressure of 12K psi, you could look at 45 Colt loads, and seat the correct weight bullet to the same "OAL" as specified for the 45 Colt. That would be possible, but would be tricky and present many opportunities for error. No manufacturer would recommend it.

So in fairness to the others, while I think it can be done, I don't think it should.
 
lyman54 said:
Why? Better to just get a piece that's made for smokeless powder cartridges.
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Because you can't use cartridge guns in muzzleloader seasons, or muzzleloader areas. For the vast majority of muzzleloader hunters, there isn't any other reason nor does there need to be. I haven't seen fringed buckskin or a coonskin cap in years.
 
Anything with a threaded in breech plug has a very good chance of killing the operator when it fails, with the plug going right through the shooter's throat. Seeing as many muzzle loaders have threaded breeches, and the manufacturers say never shoot smokeless, the powder makers say never too... Well it just seems to indicate it's a plain bad idea. The opening poster was talking muzzle loading in my interpretation, cartridge is a slightly different game. I'm a pilot, and when I'm told 'NEVER' do etc etc I still want to know why, but I'll be damned if I try it until I find out why I shouldn't have. You only get one chance at it with flying... Same for this, often.
 
Well I have some more info from a couple of fellas that are doing this.......

Turns out I should have asked this question in gunsmithing or BP/ML forum instead of reloading..... But I was originally thinking this was about burn rates and pressure.....

What they have done is have a Savage breech plug installed on their ML so they can SAFELY shoot smokless out of their BP ML.........

Apparently (after talking to my G-smith) its a fairly easy conversion as well. Savage Breech plugs are larger (in diameter) than 90% of other BP breech plugs so it as simple matter of drilling and tapping the exhisting breech to accept the Savage plug.

I have been hearing reports of Muzzle velocitys in the neibourhood of 2400 to 2700 fps! I sense some BS in there, but I am currently pushing 250gr .45 (with sabot) at 2010 avg. FPS. (3x50gr 777 pellets) so I guess it would be concievable.

Anyway I guess I should move this disscussion in the BP & ML forum.

Thanks for your input,
Cheers!

Cheers!
 
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