#### On Closing?
- Thread starter mmattockx
- Start date
exactly
I agree, but it is often mentioned how #### on opening is somehow better and there are even conversions for the M96 to make it COO as well. I am just wondering exactly why all the dislike for COC.
Mark
Probably just a case of everyone sees the COC desighn "weaker" then the standard COO. No reason behind it, just how they were told/ taught. I honestly prefer my Enfield COC bolt over any other bolt actions I have tried so far.
You have to look at all those American gun magazines from the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s to understand. American writers, mostly, came out of the military, where they were taught that the Amurrican US Springfield Rifle, M-1903, Caliber .30M1906, was the best thing since sliced bread. Not only that, it was the finest, best, most accurate rifle in the world, bar none.
Even the 1903A3 was relegated to second-class status. The M-1917, a FAR better rifle, was not even discussed. The ONLY foreign rifle that got ANY decent press was the 1898 Mauser and that for the very good reason that it was already well-known that Springfield had tried to rip Mauser off.... and ended up paying 10,000 ounces of gold to Mauser for the rights to use the '98 design patents.... which Springfield went on to "improve". (Insert here the Krag cocking-piece and firing pin and that silly safety lug which stood up and out far too far.)
Earlier Mausers such as the 1889, 1890, 1891, 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, 1896 (ALL of which used ####-on-closing) obviously HAD to have been inferior because (a) they were earlier, and (2) the USA had not adopted that design, therefore it was grossly inferior.
Lee-Enfields were tolerated by a FEW writers when it was known that James Paris Lee was an AMERICAN (born in Scotland, raised in Canada did all his early desgn work in Canada) but they, also, were terribly inferior.
But that's all propaganda.
In actual FACT, ####-on-closing is faster, easier, contributes to a bolt design and operating protocol which is lightning-quick and is actually safer. The British considered it a safety factor in rifle design, hence KEEPING the ####-on-closing feature when they designed what they thought would be the perfect rifle: the P.-'14.
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Even the 1903A3 was relegated to second-class status. The M-1917, a FAR better rifle, was not even discussed. The ONLY foreign rifle that got ANY decent press was the 1898 Mauser and that for the very good reason that it was already well-known that Springfield had tried to rip Mauser off.... and ended up paying 10,000 ounces of gold to Mauser for the rights to use the '98 design patents.... which Springfield went on to "improve". (Insert here the Krag cocking-piece and firing pin and that silly safety lug which stood up and out far too far.)
Earlier Mausers such as the 1889, 1890, 1891, 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, 1896 (ALL of which used ####-on-closing) obviously HAD to have been inferior because (a) they were earlier, and (2) the USA had not adopted that design, therefore it was grossly inferior.
Lee-Enfields were tolerated by a FEW writers when it was known that James Paris Lee was an AMERICAN (born in Scotland, raised in Canada did all his early desgn work in Canada) but they, also, were terribly inferior.
But that's all propaganda.
In actual FACT, ####-on-closing is faster, easier, contributes to a bolt design and operating protocol which is lightning-quick and is actually safer. The British considered it a safety factor in rifle design, hence KEEPING the ####-on-closing feature when they designed what they thought would be the perfect rifle: the P.-'14.
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What can I possibly add to this? 
sunray, MRCLARK, and smellie in their own ways have each pretty much said it all!...
I also always sorta thought that the COO love-in was a product of the fascination with the Springfield as well as with anything Mauser 98-style...
And, like LeeEnfieldNo.4_mk1 so ably said, I too prefer my COC milsurps (esp. Enfields over my other bolt-action milsurps.....
Heck, the "Swedish Mauser" rifles I own are a sheer pleasure, too!
sunray, MRCLARK, and smellie in their own ways have each pretty much said it all!...
I also always sorta thought that the COO love-in was a product of the fascination with the Springfield as well as with anything Mauser 98-style...
And, like LeeEnfieldNo.4_mk1 so ably said, I too prefer my COC milsurps (esp. Enfields over my other bolt-action milsurps.....
Heck, the "Swedish Mauser" rifles I own are a sheer pleasure, too!
First bolt gun I ever fired was my sportered no1mkIII. While shopping for a new bolt gun to gun with I could not find one that I found more comfortable to operate than that .303. unfortunately there was something up with the gun and I couldnt get it to sight in at all so now I'm looking to get a Parker Hale sportered gun.
So what's the problem with the old SMLE? If they don't shoot, 98% of the time it's loose screws or The Damned Crack.
Check your screws. If they are tight, then the problem likely is The Damned Crack. Remove the fore-end and look at the rear end of it, where the trigger mech ges down to meet the triger. Right in that thin part of the wood, that's where you find The Damned Crack. It is responsible for more poor-shooting SMLEs than two-thirds of all the bad barrels ever made. Clean the wood with bake-drum cleaner, glue it with a couple of drops of Acra-Glas and clamp it for a day, trim the excess, keep clamped one more day, assemble the rifle and go shoot a good group.
Have fun!
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Check your screws. If they are tight, then the problem likely is The Damned Crack. Remove the fore-end and look at the rear end of it, where the trigger mech ges down to meet the triger. Right in that thin part of the wood, that's where you find The Damned Crack. It is responsible for more poor-shooting SMLEs than two-thirds of all the bad barrels ever made. Clean the wood with bake-drum cleaner, glue it with a couple of drops of Acra-Glas and clamp it for a day, trim the excess, keep clamped one more day, assemble the rifle and go shoot a good group.
Have fun!
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#### on opening is the fashion trend of 1900, that gun snobs can't move away from.
I guess, sadly, we Enfield lovers are sort of the "Apple" people of the generation (Ooh - I think I just threw up a little in my mouth, having that thought!). But seriously - the COO fan club screams "we are stronger".... So what? .303BR is more than adequate for anything I'm going to shoot on this continent, and #### on closing is so much easier to manipulate.
IMHO
I guess, sadly, we Enfield lovers are sort of the "Apple" people of the generation (Ooh - I think I just threw up a little in my mouth, having that thought!). But seriously - the COO fan club screams "we are stronger".... So what? .303BR is more than adequate for anything I'm going to shoot on this continent, and #### on closing is so much easier to manipulate.
IMHO
Isn't the P14 and M1917 half #### on open and half #### on close? Best of both worlds I guess?
I was told once that #### on open helps twist out the spent casing out of the chamber, making it easier to cycle dirty ammo. Not sure how much truth there is to that, as I've had way more extraction issues with a MN than any LE. Any COC seems to have a way smoother action IMO.
I was told once that #### on open helps twist out the spent casing out of the chamber, making it easier to cycle dirty ammo. Not sure how much truth there is to that, as I've had way more extraction issues with a MN than any LE. Any COC seems to have a way smoother action IMO.
Agreed on field use of the rear sight, but it's a goodie on the range.
Folks are welcome to send all of their inferior M1903s to me express collect. I have found them to be impressively accurate over the years.Purple, don't hog 'em all! I'll be happy to take a few of those beasts, even low-numbered ones with that silly 547-yard zero on the battle sight.
The Springfield is a very accurate rifle, but the guys who were doing the writing were judging COMBAT Lee-Enfields against National Match Springfields. Small wonder there was a difference!
In the magazine articles, those first million rifles were mentioned as seldom as possible. Instead, the Lee-Enfield was dumped on for its 'weak' action and the rear-mounted locking lugs which made accuracy impossible. It made an entire generation of Canadians grow up despising the rifles which their own fathers and grandfathers had fought with. This attitude survives today: just listen to how people STILL denigrate the 'lousy old .303'.
Stoggie, if you analyse the action carefully, you'll see that the P-14 and M-1917 just retract the firing-pin to a safe position in order to prevent ignition while feeding. The actual cocking is done almost entirely as the bolt is thrust home to chamber the round, just like a Lee-Enfield (which also retracts the firing-pin on unlocking).
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The Springfield is a very accurate rifle, but the guys who were doing the writing were judging COMBAT Lee-Enfields against National Match Springfields. Small wonder there was a difference!
In the magazine articles, those first million rifles were mentioned as seldom as possible. Instead, the Lee-Enfield was dumped on for its 'weak' action and the rear-mounted locking lugs which made accuracy impossible. It made an entire generation of Canadians grow up despising the rifles which their own fathers and grandfathers had fought with. This attitude survives today: just listen to how people STILL denigrate the 'lousy old .303'.
Stoggie, if you analyse the action carefully, you'll see that the P-14 and M-1917 just retract the firing-pin to a safe position in order to prevent ignition while feeding. The actual cocking is done almost entirely as the bolt is thrust home to chamber the round, just like a Lee-Enfield (which also retracts the firing-pin on unlocking).
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Precisely what I grew up with, The m96 and all #### on closing actions are weak....blaa blaa blaa. So I thought the Swed M96 couldn't handle 308 win or 30-06 or 9.3x62 0r 8x57 or 7x57 or anything other than 6.5x55. Yeah right. Now we have Swed sporters in all calibers from tradex.
Doesn't A-Square use the preferred P14/P17 action? Why, stronger than the 1903 action big time...
Doesn't A-Square use the preferred P14/P17 action? Why, stronger than the 1903 action big time...
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
To open a bolt action, lift up on the bolt and pull back. To close, push forward and down. #### when ever the heck you want in the cycle, it all works.
The only time it is noticeable to me is at the bench when cycling at a leisurely pace. During a follow up shot hunting or during rapids at a Vintage match I can't tell the difference.
The only time it is noticeable to me is at the bench when cycling at a leisurely pace. During a follow up shot hunting or during rapids at a Vintage match I can't tell the difference.
