9.3x62 vs. .375 H&H

[1899]

A M98 pattern rifle in 375 H&H "... is hardly the ideal way to go." ? Many would disagree with you.
.

That is misinterpreting/misquoting my statement. Cutting/modifying a standard length M98 is hardly the ideal way to go. If you are mentioning the $11,000 ATVs and such, then a true Magnum Mauser is within the realm of possibilities. However, I doubt many of us can afford a rifle like that.

I'm just saying that a modified M98 in 9.3x62 is a great and inexpensive alternative to a similar rifle in .375 H&H. You won't give up any killing power either. Note what Whynot? said; and he's probably the leading local expert on the two, since he's used both over many years on game.

 

[rgv]

I'm just saying that a modified M98 in 9.3x62 is a great and inexpensive alternative to a similar rifle in .375 H&H.

I agree with the above statement 100%.

I don't agree with your justification that ...

Cutting/modifying a standard length M98 is hardly the ideal way to go.

I guess I still don't get why modifying a std M98 is any different than what Whitworth or Browning did to their rifles ?

I guess I can agree to disagree I think the 9.3x62 (and the 35 Whelen and 338-06) are excellent medium bores and 'all-round' calibers for heavy north american game, but I would never try to argue any one of them against the 375 H&H, especially using the agrument that it fits a Mauser better

 

[1899]

This is what I mean:

Also remember that the original loads for the .375 H&H were not as hot as what handloaders cook up these days.

If you look at the picture above, and compare these breech pressures, which affects the pressure on the recoil lugs:

9.3x62 with 300gr Swift - H414 61.3 gr 2,300 fps 44,864 psi
case area is .126", so (.126 sq. in.)(44,864psi) = back thrust of 5653 lbs.

.375 works at a maximum pressure of 62,000psi. If you use that pressure and apply the formula, you come up with:
case area is .156" sq. in. - (.156 sq. in.)(62,000psi) = back thrust of 9672 lbs

You have to load the .375 down to 36,237 psi to have equivalent back thrust.
At that pressure, there is no way the .375 will equal the 9.3x62's performance.
So then, you have a weakened action, with the possibility of up to 70% more back thrust. But I am mindfull that the old .375 loads were lower pressure, and the M98 actions are, in many cases over 75 years old.

Does any of this matter? I don't know, maybe I'm paranoid. I don't know of any failures, so maybe I'm reading into it too much. Bill Leeper, where are you?

edit: I understand there is a way to open up the action backwards, but I am not familiar with this method and my density prevents me from understandin how well that would work.

 

[Gatehouse]

Only if you find a way to defy basic physics.

The 375 HH has a case capacity of 95.4 gr water and the 9.3x62 is 75.9 gr water (from the Barnes reloading manual #1). That is a 25% increase.

On top of that, the 375 HH has a small advantage in bore (think piston) area (around 5%)

loaded to the same pressure and equal SD bullets and barrel length, the 9.3x62 will not equal the 375. It can't.

Now in comparison on effectiveness on game, that is another matter.

As far as the other arguments, what common rifle action will the 9.3x62 fit into that a 375 H&H won't (besides the Ruger 77) ?. Just get a pre-64 M70 action and you are good to go. 4 round mag capacity in 375 H&H and CRF.

I'm not going to argue that you can get more velocity form the 375, that is clear. Bigger case= more velocity.

The point I am making is that it looks as if the data for the 9.3 is soft, and a careful handloader can probably load to a higher pressure than published data, and still be completley safe.

So you could be nipping a tthe heels of the 375 H&H...

I can easily get 2550 fps with a Partion 300gr, in my 375 H&H. I could probbaly get more if I wanted. A 9.3 couldnt' match that, but I bet if it was carefully loaded, it could get close to the 375 H&H factory ammo...



(I have a suspicion that even the largest grizzly bear in the world will not know if it was hit by a 286gr Partiton or a 300gr !!

 

[Andy]

I can get just short of 2500 fps with a 350gr Barnes in my 375 H&H Browning A-Bolt's 26" barrel. What's the best you guys get with a 350gr bullet in the 9.3x62?

 

[Gatehouse]

shouldn't the 9.3x62 be more fairly compared to the .35 Whelen, not the .375 H&H???

In a way, I suppose you are correct, as the 2 are very similar cartridges.

But I think the comparison between the 375 and 9.3 makes more sense, because they were both designed to fill a similar role, that being an 'all around' cartridge.

Neither one was designed to be a "stopper" for very large game, nor was really long distance huning what they originally had in mind.

They were intended to be all purpose for Africa.

 

[Why not?]

(I have a suspicion that even the largest grizzly bear in the world will not know if it was hit by a 286gr Partiton or a 300gr !!

All of this discussion is very good, and everyone has presented good information, however Gatehouse has nailed it squarely with the above statement.

My experience has been exactly what he has presented, whether I was using a 286 gr Norma PP Dual Core at 2400 fps in the 9.3 or a 300 gr Nosler partition at 2550 in the 375, the animals went down.......period!

I will say this, if I were building a masher on a Mauser, it would not be a 35 Whelen or a 375 H&H. It would be a 9.3X62, and I would have the best of both.

Ted

 

[eltorro]

this asks for a propane tank test.....

Or are those just for the .410s?

great load of info.

 

[boonerbuck]

They were intended to be all purpose for Africa.

The 9.3x62 Mauser was designed with being an easy convert to protect crops/livestock actually and the Mauser was the surplus rifle most handy.

 

[1899]

here is an interesting quote:

World War II marked the beginning of the end for the 9,3x62, Mauser stopped producing rifles, and supplies of good quality Kynock of DWM ammunition became unreliable in the early '60's. The Norma and S&B (Czech) ammunition that remained available was generally designed for medium sized game (up to eland/elk) and the solids were too poor a quality to take against elephant. The European rifles that remained in production were no longer cheap, and the new breed of hunter coming to Africa were Americans, who wanted cartridges chambered for imperial cartridges that they could understand, had a belt on them to "show" that they were a Magnum, and chambered in a cheap home grown American rifle. It didn't matter that the.375H&H solids broke up far more readily than the 9,3's or that the .375 produced greater meat damage with no improvement in effectiveness, and did so with a significant increase in recoil. Ammunition was available, it was cheap, and a new Winchester or Remington, was half the price of a Steyr- Manlicher or Husqvarna. By the 1970's the 9,3.62 was all but dead in Africa, although it remained very popular in Europe.

In recent years the 9,3x62 has seen something of a revival. Good quality Bruno (CZ) rifle arrived on the market which are substantially cheaper than any quality .375, supplies of high quality (and damned expensive) RWS a ammunition began to arrive and custom bullet makers from Ken Stewart to Woodleigh began to produce first class bullets in 9,3. Contrary to popular belief that .375 H&H is the minimum calibre for Class A game in Zimbabwe (Elephant, Buffa1o and Hippo) a the 9,3x62 is perfectly legal without having to over-load it, and the current RWS 293 grain TUG load safely meets the minimum energy requirements.

 

[iiijbird]

Great thread. My 602 cz 375 will hold 5 down. I had a weak moment and ordered a fabarm asper from shooting edge last week. IN 9.3 X 74R . It will be my first at the 9.3 caliber so i am reading everything i can on them.
Curtis

 

[todbartell]

I can get just short of 2500 fps with a 350gr Barnes in my 375 H&H Browning A-Bolt's 26" barrel. What's the best you guys get with a 350gr bullet in the 9.3x62?

a 416 will propel a 350 gr. @ 2700 fps, how 'bout them apples

 

[bullcoon]

mmmmmmmmm

okay tod thats a remmington, but my 416 rigby is just getting warmed up and will do that with about a half a load ? how about them sour grapes partner ?

 

[Republic of Alberta]

Great thread. My 602 cz 375 will hold 5 down. I had a weak moment and ordered a fabarm asper from shooting edge last week. IN 9.3 X 74R . It will be my first at the 9.3 caliber so i am reading everything i can on them.
Curtis

What is this "fabarm asper" of which you speak?


Btw 9.3x74R is one of the coolest cartages of all time.

 

[todbartell]

my grapes are good, but how is your shoulder after a half dozen of them loads??
​

 

[iiijbird]

The fabarm asper is a doubl over and under

 

[Lazy Ike]

375 is the best mtn caliber around(Brokeback mtn that is) Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[bullcoon]

mmmmmmmmmmm

tod it only hurts after 6 shots if you have the shoulders of a trout partner?

 

[todbartell]

point taken


I will stick with my 260
​

 

[SuperCub]

This is what I mean:

Also remember that the original loads for the .375 H&H were not as hot as what handloaders cook up these days.

If you look at the picture above, and compare these breech pressures, which affects the pressure on the recoil lugs:

I'd like to see the same sectioned picture of an un-altered feed ramp just to see the difference.




sc