New Enfield Help

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mike12

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Just got my first Enfield, it's a No 4 MK1 from Trade Ex Canada and was very pleased with both the service and condition of the rifle. Being new to these rifles and somewhat new to guns I took it to Ellwood Epps to have it checked over and test fired. I just got a call from them saying that the headspace was off to the point that it was unsafe to fire, they explained that the only thing they could do is shift the barrel back but they did not recommended this. Once I got off the phone I did some searching on the web and found that this is a common issue (headspace) with Enfields and sometimes misdiagnosed. Most threads suggest swapping the head bolt to a large one, although I’m surprised, if this was so easy why wouldn’t Epps have suggested it. I've heard nothing but good things about Epps so I can only assume they are giving me all the facts, unless they have limited experience with Enfields. TEC has already offered to take the gun back but I'd had to pay to ship it back on someone else's mistake.

Any thoughts or suggestions on a place in southern Ontario who specializes on Enfields?

Thanks!
Mike
 
I don't suppose that you were told what gauge the rifle had accepted?
A Lee Enfield has to be really loose to be unsafe.
Setting a barrel back on a Lee Enfield is a lot of work, and requires stock modifications as well. Not really practical.
What number is the bolthead in the rifle?
A number 3 bolthead is the longest. These can be hard to find.
TradeEx will take the rifle back, why not do that?
 
1. Have someone else check the headspace, just to get a second opinion.

2. If headspace is still the issue and the number on the bolt head is a "0" or a "1", fixing the issue should be easy. if it's a "2" then it's a little trickier.

3. Shipping the rifle back is still an option.
 
Thanks for the help, unfortunately I didn't get the guage size and I'm not sure what number head bolt is in the rifle now (I'm learning as I go). I'm going to give them a call tomorrow and ask these questions, it just seemed odd to me that they didn't mention these options.

Assuming that the headspace is beyond an acceptable range, they are measuring correctly and the headbolt is a 3 or 4, does this mean that the rifle beyond fixable?
 
Well - its beyond fixable, but not unuseable. Headspace is not a black and white thing. For example, the military field gage is looser than the civilian equivalent.
Chances are your rifle would shoot acceptably, but if it fails the military gage (.074) with a 3 bolt head - you'd best return the rifle.
Handloaders could continue to get utility out of this rifle by sizing the cases to match the chamber.
 
cosmic said:
well - its beyond fixable, but not unuseable. Headspace is not a black and white thing. For example, the military field gage is looser than the civilian equivalent.
Chances are your rifle would shoot acceptably, but if it fails the military gage (.074) with a 3 bolt head - you'd best return the rifle.
Handloaders could continue to get utility out of this rifle by sizing the cases to match the chamber.
Click to expand...

ditto
 
On the other hand, it's always possible to blow the brass out with a light charge and heaspace on the shoulder s with a rimless round.

You can get away with a LOT with a Lee-Enfield rifle and you can get away with a lot MORE if you really know what you're doing.

Headspace is not the universal bugaboo it has been made out to be. It is possible to have "excess" headspace in a rifle simply from changing brands or lots of ammo. Some makes/lots of ammo have rims so very thin that a rifle in perfect shape will actualy have excess headspace when this amo is introduced.

A 3 is the highset number of bolt-head commonly seen. There were a VERY few 4s made during War Two but nearly all were got out of the sytem as soon as the emergency was a little less urgent. The books say generally that the 3 was absolutely the highest, but I once owned a rifle with a 4, so I know that they existed.

There are THREE variables (not counting the ammunition or the barrel) involved here: receiver tolerances, bolt-body tolerances and bolt-head tolerances. Swapping the bolt miht help. So might silver-soldering a thin shim to the front of the bolt-head. So might changing the bolt-head. Or a combination of them all. But you CAN take are of most f the problem with careful loading of good ammunition.
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"...seemed odd..." Epp's may not have any bolt heads. No. 4 bolt heads aren't as common as they used to be. Chances are Epp's smithy did try a few other bolt heads, but they were all closing on a Field. If Epp's would use a Field. CF Weapons Techs did not.
It's possible the change the bolt body too, but you have to have 'em.
Call Trade Ex. Unless the sales terms were 'As is', they might take it back.
 
As mentionned, if you handload, that is the easiest solution.

I have .303 gauges in .064, .068, and .074. Rims can occasionally be less than .060, so you can see that even if a rifle gauges OK, things can still be pretty sloppy.

Even if a rifle gauges within specs, it is common practice to handload so that the case is basically headspacing on the shoulder. This results in longer case life, and reduces the incidence of case separations.

It is not as if there is a large supply of cheap surplus ammunition out there. If you are going to do any amount of shooting, handloading makes a lot of sense.

Anyway, find out what the gauge situation is, get the rifle back, and explore your options. Exchanging it might be the least expensive way to go. Paying a business to gauge and test fire a rifle can't be inexpensive.
 
There are variations in bolt length, so there is a possibility that headspace could be brought back into range with a different bolt. This is not as simple as it sounds though. There are a number of issues to be resolved when fitting a new bolt. For starts, both bolt lugs must bear evenly on the lug seats in the receiver. This involves verifying the current degree of bearing with a marker dye and then stoning one of the bolt lugs to get an even degree of bearing on the lug seats.

Tradex is a reputable dealer. You may be best to have them replace the rifle.
 
Not too sure...

plinker 777 said:
Bummer...see if tradex will pay the shipping for the replacement rifle they {ought} to offer you...:(....sling and bayo, something. OP are these rifles the ones that are "still packed in grease armory refurbs" that seem to be advertised lately?
Click to expand...

OP

Not certain this is the best advice...TRADEX is a great company with only satisfied customers (so far). They have a nice history of pleasing customers and, being fair...As stated you have a few things to try first:
i) Second Opinion....303 tolerances are not the best examples of U.K. Machining
ii) Contact Tradex and, get treated fairly.

Gouging honest folks may or, may not work but, if it does EVERYONE will end up paying. They have a great history and, are very good to work with.
 
Okay, now this gets even stranger, I called Epps this morning to double check that they had considered switching the headbolt. After sitting on hold for a bit, a gentlemen picked up and said that my rifle was ready, everything was in good working order and I could pick it up whenever. I asked him if he could double check as the day before someone had called and said that the rifle was essentially unsafe to fire. After sitting on hold again he came back explained that there was a bit of a mix up with my Enfield and someone elses, long story short, mine is good.

So, I head over after work to pick it up and when I arrived the guy at the counter explained that they had to switch the bolt and bolthead (mine was a #0 and they put in a #1). I then had to ask for my original bolt back, which I think the guy at the counter thought was odd, I explained to him that it was a matching bolt so I would like it back.

Anyways, apparently the headspace is now good, although I did not get the measurement as I was pretty well done at this point. I'm going to take it to another gunsmith just to be sure.

PS. Anthony at Trade Ex was great and was willing to take the rifle back, I would recommend them to anyone.

Mike
 
mike12 said:
Any thoughts or suggestions on a place in southern Ontario who specializes on Enfields?

Thanks!
Mike
Click to expand...

My wife has used SC Gunworks (click here) to repair (including new bedding) on a number of her Lee Enfield rifles. I'm not sure if they do full restorations on Enfields, but you could ask. They do really excellent work and I'd recommend you contact Stelios there.

Also, both Claven2 and I can recommend Jason Spencer at Gunco - he definitely knows gunsmithing and Lee Enfields. No website, call 613-224-6266. He's in Ottawa and is a "real" gunsmith with accreditation, a full machine shop, a real storefront, etc. and arguably one of the best gunsmiths still plying the trade in Canada.

Finally, here's a very good article in the MKL on that explains headspacing on Enfields …

Headspace 101 for .303'shttp://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=296-Headspace-101-for-.303-s

Regards,
Doug
 
Good that you got the original bolt back.
Mixed numbers do not help the value of a rifle, and alll the TradeEx rifles I have seen have all matching numbers.
The bolthead number on the replacement bolt is irrelevant; that bolthead produced acceptable headspace with that bolt.
I would be inclined to get headspace rechecked with the original bolt assembly.
Incidentally, swapping in a new bolt should include checking engagement of the locking lugs and their abutments in the receiver.
 
Lee Enfields

If you are REALLY concerned about the headspace in your Lee Enfield, then take it to someone who really knows about the Lee Enfield.

Headspace is an over rated factor on this website. It seems that anyone who wants to add another post to their total has to do so by posting "CHECK THE HEADSPACE." While it is a good idea, it is not a horror story if a rifle does have headspace near the maximum limits.

What amazes me, is that a Company would not recognize the fact that this is a collector's firearm, and would want to keep the bolt that matches the serial number of the rifle. Also, the apparent mix up with someone else's rifle does not give an indication of reliability of their service, or their care taken.

As I have used the Lee Enfield since the mid 1950's, and fired many, many thousands of rounds out of various Lee Enfield, Ross, P-14 rifles and Bren, Lewis and Vickers Machine Guns, I can tell you that the ammunition (as mentioned by a previous post,) can vary considerably in quality and dimensions. Also as mentioned, you can have a rifle with tolerances within specifications, but having a thinner rim on the ammunition, it will give you an excess headspace.

Since you are new to the Lee Enfield, I would give you the advice to not sweat the small things. These rifles were made for Wartime use, and not as a minimum tolerance target rifle. They were made to cram into that chamber any ammunition that was available, so the tolerances tend to be "generous." As mentioned, most Military collector users are reloaders. Once a case is fired in the Lee Enfield, it is best to keep it seperated from all other cases fired in other .303 rifles. Then, when you have 100 or so cases fired in YOUR Lee Enfield, you NECK SIZE the case only, just enough to hold the bullet. This make the case fit YOUR chamber perfectly, and as SMELLIE pointed out, it is now using the shoulder for headspacing.

You might give a little more attention to what SMELLIE has told you. He learned from the best.....a five time member of Canada's Bisley Rifle Team.

If you are really concerned with the headspace, you have to use MILITARY headspace guages, not the Commercial ones that have a much tighter tolerance. If your rifle has been refurbished, chances are that the headspace was checked with Military guages and found acceptable. If you feel that you need less headspace, the buy a bolt head with a #2 or #3 stamped on it.

As far as Trade-Ex goes, I can only say that I wish every company could be like them. I have bought well over 20 firearms from them, and have always been satisfied. Anthony bends over backwards to satisfy his customers, and almost everyone who has dealt with Trade-Ex has had a good transaction. (Of course, there are always a few who can never be satisfied.) I will recommend Trade-Ex to anyone, without any reservations.
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