the_snowman1
Regular
- Location
- winnipeg manitoba
I read about these mad minute contests in great britian i was wondering if we had somethin similar here it would be interesting to watch
Mad minute
- Thread starter the_snowman1
- Start date
Closest thing I can think of might be the "Battle of the Bulge Shoot" which used to be held on the Shilo ranges in mid December. Fellows used to show up with a wide cross section of MILSURPs and like to play "Mr Dressup" in various uniforms and field gear.
There were always a lot of Lee Enfields in evidence. One would need to get cranking just to stay warm.
There were always a lot of Lee Enfields in evidence. One would need to get cranking just to stay warm.
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
What a reassuring sound to hear those Enfields crack. Something about full power battle rifles firing on your side,that if nothing else, will help calm the nerves in the face of an enemy onslaught.
Here:
[youtube]-pnQv6KZpTA[/youtube]
My 10 year old son shot the clip, sorry about the less-than-stellar editing. We were shooting at "charging man" targets at 200 yards.
I still say that a guy is "a champ" to do a mad-minute even if he's a southpaw...
Chargerguy
CGN frequent flyer
Here:
[youtube]-pnQv6KZpTA[/youtube]
My 10 year old son shot the clip, sorry about the less-than-stellar editing. We were shooting at "charging man" targets at 200 yards.
Oh yeah, that clip made my day......I need to spend more time with my Enfields
We did 10 shots rapid in 45 seconds at charging man targets while standing at an ORA rifle shoot last year. I was surprised how well I did. I was using my Long Branch No.4 and did better with the flip up sight set on 200 than using the battle sight. A very capable rifle.
Shooting standing at 200 yards would be pretty challenging, sounds like a lot of fun!
Shooting standing at 200 yards would be pretty challenging, sounds like a lot of fun!
The standard in the Great War was with the old SMLE. Fifteen rounds in 1 minute, starting with 10 in the rifle, prone unsupported, (no rest, you flat on your belly like a reptile), reload from a charger partway through, target the size of a man's chest, 200 yards.
That was the MINIMUM standard for a trained rifleman and was a part of the RECRUIT course.
If you made a good score, you could get up to threepence a day extra pay, too!
Canada used much the same standards, but using the Ross Mark II and the Ross Mark III, either one of which would do it easily.
I have the official Canadian rifle course and scoring book here. They will be posted over on milsurps.com for free download in the near future.
There was a lot of very impressive shooting at the CFB Shilo BULGE matches. Neat thing is that the match went on, no matter what; it was shot more than once in -35C and worse. Saw a guy once, so pumped it wasn't even funny, take a crack at one of the 400 yard targets with a P-'17. He got his round off (first in the relay), threw the bolt, aimed, took his second round.... and it went over top of the target as the target dropped. He had hit it dead-centre on his first shot but had the rifle reloaded and a second round off before it could drop. If anyone had told me this, I would have looked for a bucket of salt..... but I saw it, and so did 50 other guys. Frankly, I didnt think a P-'17 could be operated that fast, but I guess they can!
BULGE this year will be late, or so I am told. It takes time to set up a GOOD match and a lot of the guys are in Afghanistan these days. STENCOLLECTOR will know more.
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That was the MINIMUM standard for a trained rifleman and was a part of the RECRUIT course.
If you made a good score, you could get up to threepence a day extra pay, too!
Canada used much the same standards, but using the Ross Mark II and the Ross Mark III, either one of which would do it easily.
I have the official Canadian rifle course and scoring book here. They will be posted over on milsurps.com for free download in the near future.
There was a lot of very impressive shooting at the CFB Shilo BULGE matches. Neat thing is that the match went on, no matter what; it was shot more than once in -35C and worse. Saw a guy once, so pumped it wasn't even funny, take a crack at one of the 400 yard targets with a P-'17. He got his round off (first in the relay), threw the bolt, aimed, took his second round.... and it went over top of the target as the target dropped. He had hit it dead-centre on his first shot but had the rifle reloaded and a second round off before it could drop. If anyone had told me this, I would have looked for a bucket of salt..... but I saw it, and so did 50 other guys. Frankly, I didnt think a P-'17 could be operated that fast, but I guess they can!
BULGE this year will be late, or so I am told. It takes time to set up a GOOD match and a lot of the guys are in Afghanistan these days. STENCOLLECTOR will know more.
.
The term "mad minute" originally applied to the rapid fire capability of British soldiers who trained in the years leading up to WWI. A trained soldier was expected to fire a minimum of 15 aimed rounds per minute with his Lee Enfield, from the prone position.
As those familiar with the Lee Enfield know, this required a reload of 5 rounds from a stripper clip after the 10 rounds in the mag had been fired - all inside 60 seconds.
It is recorded that many trained soldiers could fire 20 to 25 rds per minute. A few years ago I timed a shooting buddy using a No. 1 Mk.III Lee Enfield, the WWI rifle, and he got off 20 rounds in a minute, starting with a full mag and reloading 5 rds twice. Accuracy of his shots was not great, but it was impressive to see and hear.
As those familiar with the Lee Enfield know, this required a reload of 5 rounds from a stripper clip after the 10 rounds in the mag had been fired - all inside 60 seconds.
It is recorded that many trained soldiers could fire 20 to 25 rds per minute. A few years ago I timed a shooting buddy using a No. 1 Mk.III Lee Enfield, the WWI rifle, and he got off 20 rounds in a minute, starting with a full mag and reloading 5 rds twice. Accuracy of his shots was not great, but it was impressive to see and hear.
Best REPEATED rate of fire with the SMLE was demonstrated many times in the Great War: 37 rounds in 1 minute, all hits.
As far as the RIFLE is concerned, it can be operated as quickly as 67 rounds per minute.
Two good books to get are "The Retreat From Mons" and "The Advance From Mons". The first is by a British junior officer, the second from a German junior officer and they are describing precisely the same action. At times, these men were as close as a couple of hundred yards. It is more than a bit interesting to read the two eyewitness accounts, side by side; you realise that you are reading two different sides of the same action. The British book came out in 1915, if I recall correctly, the German book in 1922 although it was not translated into English until 1924. DEFINITELY good reading. You can find both books in the back room at your local second-hand bookstore. That's where I got mine, anyway.
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As far as the RIFLE is concerned, it can be operated as quickly as 67 rounds per minute.
Two good books to get are "The Retreat From Mons" and "The Advance From Mons". The first is by a British junior officer, the second from a German junior officer and they are describing precisely the same action. At times, these men were as close as a couple of hundred yards. It is more than a bit interesting to read the two eyewitness accounts, side by side; you realise that you are reading two different sides of the same action. The British book came out in 1915, if I recall correctly, the German book in 1922 although it was not translated into English until 1924. DEFINITELY good reading. You can find both books in the back room at your local second-hand bookstore. That's where I got mine, anyway.
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Here's me a few years back, competing in the mad minute event at a ANZAC day 303 shoot in Wellington NZ, we start with 5 in the mag, with 10 rounds loose or in chargers.
My rifle is a 1907 BSA MkIII.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lYxJwwmcwU
My rifle is a 1907 BSA MkIII.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lYxJwwmcwU
How many?
Back in the 1950's and 60's I was fortunate enough to have a great Sergeant-Major, who had been an Instructor at the School of Musketry in Hythe, England. There were three of us in the Regiment who took an interest in target shooting, and he went out of his way to teach us the "extras" of using the Lee Enfield.
After two months, you were expected to fire 30 rounds per minute, starting with 10 in the magazine. There is a technique that was not taught to the average Infantryman, but with it you can put an amazing amount of rounds downrange. On the 12 inch round targets held up for 5 seconds, (or 7 seconds in some cases), it was not uncommon to put two rounds into them.
I also spent a lot of time selecting chargers with the proper tension in them, to filing the inside down so that the rounds would go into the rifle more smoothly, and polishing them inside with emery cloth so that they were slick. Blued chargers worked not too bad, but the Wartime ones were rough.
This rapid fire was used for two purposes. Long range on a large target, such as marching soldiers or transport columns, and very short range massed charging enemy infantry.
British Infantry was taught bolt manipulation. They practiced it, and this is why the Germans thought they had encountered machine guns when they first came up against the British Regulars early on in WW1. This deteriorated as they became casualties, and newer Recruits were never really given the knowledge or practice of sustained rapid fire.
Back in the mid 90's we had a discussion at the Gun Club about how fast a bolt action rifle was. We decided to actually have a bit of a test. I did work on some chargers, and made up some dummies, and did about two weeks of getting back into practice with the Lee Enfield
We put a Fig. 11 target up at 50 yards, laid out the ammo, and set up a movie camera. A stop watch was used, along with a whistle to start and stop shooting. The end result, with 6 witnesses and a movie tape, was 38 rounds fired, with 37 hits, and one about an inch from the left ear of the target. Not too bad for a 55+ year old guy at the time.
As I am 70 this year, it might be fun to see just how fast it could still be done. I am sure SMELLIE would like to participate in something like that.
.
Back in the 1950's and 60's I was fortunate enough to have a great Sergeant-Major, who had been an Instructor at the School of Musketry in Hythe, England. There were three of us in the Regiment who took an interest in target shooting, and he went out of his way to teach us the "extras" of using the Lee Enfield.
After two months, you were expected to fire 30 rounds per minute, starting with 10 in the magazine. There is a technique that was not taught to the average Infantryman, but with it you can put an amazing amount of rounds downrange. On the 12 inch round targets held up for 5 seconds, (or 7 seconds in some cases), it was not uncommon to put two rounds into them.
I also spent a lot of time selecting chargers with the proper tension in them, to filing the inside down so that the rounds would go into the rifle more smoothly, and polishing them inside with emery cloth so that they were slick. Blued chargers worked not too bad, but the Wartime ones were rough.
This rapid fire was used for two purposes. Long range on a large target, such as marching soldiers or transport columns, and very short range massed charging enemy infantry.
British Infantry was taught bolt manipulation. They practiced it, and this is why the Germans thought they had encountered machine guns when they first came up against the British Regulars early on in WW1. This deteriorated as they became casualties, and newer Recruits were never really given the knowledge or practice of sustained rapid fire.
Back in the mid 90's we had a discussion at the Gun Club about how fast a bolt action rifle was. We decided to actually have a bit of a test. I did work on some chargers, and made up some dummies, and did about two weeks of getting back into practice with the Lee Enfield
We put a Fig. 11 target up at 50 yards, laid out the ammo, and set up a movie camera. A stop watch was used, along with a whistle to start and stop shooting. The end result, with 6 witnesses and a movie tape, was 38 rounds fired, with 37 hits, and one about an inch from the left ear of the target. Not too bad for a 55+ year old guy at the time.
As I am 70 this year, it might be fun to see just how fast it could still be done. I am sure SMELLIE would like to participate in something like that.
.
Excellent time to be had there, I hope we in Alberta will get advance notice on this so we can get our permits.
TargetNorth
Regular
- Location
- Southern Alberta
That's awesome! I love my Enfield, it'd be great to know how to shoot like that. Thanks for sharing.
The LE had it's last hurrah in WW2 where the BREN was actually the basis of firepower in the infantry platoon with the riflemen hauling extra BREN mags in their basic pouches. the same situation existed with the Germans who used the MG34/42 on a more lavish scale than we did.
It got even worse in Korea where a preferred tactic of the Chinese was to infiltrate as close as possible to our positions using dead ground in the mountainous terrain and to then overwhelm them with a surge from close range. The LE just couldn't generate the close range firepower to handle this, so additional BRENs were issued to compensate. The troops also took to informal ways of aquiring additional firepower in the form of M1 Garands and Carbines from the Americans, and even Thompson SMGs which the Chicoms had gotten in large numbers from the collapse of the Nationalist Chinese. The Vickers MMG, BRENs and the support of extensive artillery and mortar fires were what saved the day.
One of the big lessons for the infantry after WW2 was that the semi or selective fire autoloader was the way to go for a personal weapon. Our infantry suffered from the the lack of this type of personal weapon in Korea.
It got even worse in Korea where a preferred tactic of the Chinese was to infiltrate as close as possible to our positions using dead ground in the mountainous terrain and to then overwhelm them with a surge from close range. The LE just couldn't generate the close range firepower to handle this, so additional BRENs were issued to compensate. The troops also took to informal ways of aquiring additional firepower in the form of M1 Garands and Carbines from the Americans, and even Thompson SMGs which the Chicoms had gotten in large numbers from the collapse of the Nationalist Chinese. The Vickers MMG, BRENs and the support of extensive artillery and mortar fires were what saved the day.
One of the big lessons for the infantry after WW2 was that the semi or selective fire autoloader was the way to go for a personal weapon. Our infantry suffered from the the lack of this type of personal weapon in Korea.
What a reassuring sound to hear those Enfields crack. Something about full power battle rifles firing on your side,that if nothing else, will help calm the nerves in the face of an enemy onslaught.
And that's just eight guys firing. Imagine the sound of a whole company blazing away...
