2007 M14S Barrel indexing problem (more pics added)

Riflechair

Riflechair

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Just got this back from having the barrel indexed.
Gas system is canted over about 8 degrees and the front ferule is out of alignment.
Worried about the sights lining up.

This rifle had gone for accuracy work and was for sale (M1 Garand sights installed, gas system unitized, action bedded and the barrel checked for indexing). I thought to myself - GREAT - this should be a real shooter. The work was done by a reputable member of this board so I figured this was a low risk purchase.

When it arrived, the sites looked out. I had to drift the front sight considerably to zero the rifle. I sent the rifle to the chap that tuned the rifle to begin with. The report I got back was that the barrel was backing out. The barrel splines were peened and then threaded back on. After 3.5 months the rifle was returned with the warranty work completed.

This is what the indexing looks like now. Not a great pic but it's what I have.

I am concerned about piston alignment, abnormal wear and so-on.
Have a look at this picture and tell me what you think?
Do I send it back - again?

ferule.jpg

ferule1.jpg

ferule2.jpg

ferule3.jpg
 
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Well is it just the way that it is sitting in the stock ?
Have you tried another stock and seen if it sits straight in another stock ?
I am a bit concerned about the barrel backing out . Do you think that it is a indexing issue or that the barrel splines for the gas cylinder and the front site are cut crooked ?
I am just curious on your thoughts,I do not see the front site in the pic . How far did you have to drift it ?
 
Hard to tell with just that pic. Gotta see if that barreled action will center in other M14 stocks. Would be nice to see a pic of the front sight from the rear sights. It's hard to trouble shoot this from the internet....
 
Well, something is wrong.
Are the sights indexed, TDC?
With the barrelled action removed from the stock, are the gas cylinder and operating rod properly lined up BDC?
Is the stock true?
"Barrel backing out"? As in unscrewing from the receiver? Not good. Maybe that's why that fool setscrew is installed? Using a rolling tool to upset the shoulder allows the barrel to be torqued in, but is a bit of an improvised fix. Fitting a breeching washer is better.
 
I did the work
first time it was done was at an impromptu clinic at my house with 2 fellow cgn'ers over a year ago..... bongobob and steveb i believe. apparently steveb sold this rifle to riflechair who upon installing a new flash hider, observed issues with the barrel being canted to the right.
2 ways this happened..... either someone physically moved the barrel or it came loose from firing... which has been documented before with these rifles, rarely however.

I offered to inspect and correct indexing on said rifle as it was a rifle that was on my bench at one time.

even though it took considerable force to unseat this barrel, I roll swaged it anyways (as per U.S. armourers specifications) to re-create a correct torque shoulder and reinstalled the barrel using correct indexing tools , using the receiver and supplied flash hider as index zero.

what i noticed while inspecting this rifle, it seemed strange to me that it required so much force to unseat a barrel that had apparently moved on it's own and there is a ring of what appears to be tool marks on the barrel. a 2 inch length of parkerizing, worn evenly around the barrel's circumference, about 4 to 5 inches from the chamber end. I won't speculate as to how these marks were made..... not by any tools in my shop anyways. I'd like to see a pic of that portion of the barrel posted so we can all see that as well.

and please take pics of the stock and action inlet and post those as well.

As for the stock on this rifle, very poor selector and connector lock fill, receiver bedding areas are definately not correctly modified and this stock could use a full bedding make over. Dealing with the stock and action fit was not part of my task to investigate and correct the obvious barrel indexing issues, and the original stock work was not done by me.
 
well...... it should be.
all i did was remove the barrel, swage the shoulder to allow for 15 degree draw hand tight, as per the methods described in US m14 service rifle maintenance procedures when such a condition rears it's head.

next , barrel was reinstalled, observing approx 90 foot pounds to draw to index, using correct and identical machinist levels on the rear receiver flat behind the rear sight and on the flash hider sight base, with the flash hider tightened in place.... again , this is the recognized, correct method to index the barrel. flash hider and front site were not the originals from the first time i handled this rifle and were supplied by rifle's owner.

rifle was cleaned, lubed and placed in it's supplied stock, which upon my quick inspection I noticed to be incorrectly modified and fitted for the norinco action. I did not address this issue as it was not requested, the stock work was not done by me, and it has a rather unique and cool paint job that i did not want to disturb. The owner was anxious for me to ship the rifle to his friend in ontario and due to delays in my shop was here longer than he had hoped.

I would like to see this rifle taken to the range and shot and a report given then.
i would like to see it fitted with a known to be correct stock and see if the action'barrel still sits angled to one side.
Apparently the flash hider or front sight appear to be loose...... check the flash hider castlenut...... let's hope i did not miss tightening that down..... I'd be pretty embarrassed as my work has an excellent reputation it seems. The front sight may be loose as most owners i know will adjust it once they gt thier rifle back..... I do not test fire to "sight in" rifles, I test fire for function only, with my ammo, test firing for zeroing the sights is a "you pay for the ammo" kinda thing and i don't get that request often.

it's important to remember, this rifle was brought to my house where 2 other gun nutz and I played at the bench for several hours putting a few rifles together and doing some minor tweaks to the one in question. basic accurizing if you will. NM condition oprod guide, tig unitize gas assembly, check index and headspace , inspect rear sights, trigger, ect.
there may have been a renumeration to me for the time and use of the bench and my expertise. The original owner can chime in if i am remembering incorrectly.

So what i noticed when the rifle arrived..... the stock flash hider was gone with an unknown manufacture replacement, i am not aware of the origin of the front sight.
Upon shouldering the rifle the problem was immediately evident, the front sight was leaning WAY to the right, severely. stripped the action from the stock and noticed immediately the oprod guide and gas cylinder leaning WAY to the left. It's obvious right off the bat that the barrel was severely under indexed....... this was not how it left the bench the day SteveB took her home, over a year ago.... he's the kind of man that would notice right away and call me on it ;)
It is strange to me that when i removed the barrel it took near 80 foot pounds to unseat it from it's already reverse rotated position as 80 ft lbs is within the m14 specification for correct barrel torque..... which should in theory prevent a "loosening by fire scenario". I also find it strange that I found a 2 inch long area of the barrel between the oprod and receiver where the parkerizing is evenly and slightly worn off around the circumference of the barrrel..... perhaps a scout mount.... not sure if there had been one istalled ever....... or tooling marks from an attempt to correct perceived indexing issue.

Regardless i find it a little unsettling that the OP did not wait for my response to his friend's email prior to posting this thread in the forums.

correctly bed the action and take it to a range, then come on the internet and complain
 
if op-rod guide is peened correctly into place then have a look at picture 2051, skip all the others.

pic 2059 could indicate bedding could cause rotation in the stock but it would shift on the opposite side of OP's first picture
 
The action is tight in the stock and takes a little effort to remove it. There is no pressure on the barrel from the stock. Meaning there is no contact with the barrel past the
front of the action, the barrel does not touch the stock, not even at the hand guard band.
 
chemo said:
pic 2059 could indicate bedding could cause rotation in the stock but it would shift on the opposite side of OP's first picture
Click to expand...

The stock has not changed, see pic 2059 and compare to pic DSCF0143 (bottom). note the distance between the hand guard spring.

IMG_2059.JPG


DSCF0143.jpg
 
M-14 barreling issues

Hi All

Here is the history of the rifle as I know it. I only owned it for a short while of approx 1 year or less.

I obtained it as a barrelled action in a trade from Lazzerus and then immediately sent it to Thomas to be gone through. If I remember correctly I may have had it sent directly from Lazzerus to Thomas. Thomas was paid to go through the entire rifle for faults and correct them. He found, for instance, that the Norc rear sight had been stripped and I purchased a Garand rear sight from him which he installed.

I also purchased from Thomas a Ulimak (SP?) rail and had that installed. Before selling the rifle to RifleChair I removed the rail and replaced it with a new Norc cover. This probably is the source of the parkerizing wear marks because the mounting rings for the rail go around the barrel about this location.

I had a USGI stock left over that had been glassbedded for a Norc from a gunsmith who specializes in M-14's in Edmonton. I then had the forearm reinforced with carbon fiber and painted. The action fitted decently with no barrel contact.

I mounted an Aimpoint H1 microsite on the rail and test fired it a number for times. I believe that I didn't fire it more than about 50 rounds before deciding to sell most of my M-14 stuff. This rifle shot well but wasn't a match rifle. I was happy with the groups.

It became a safe queen after that for many months and then I sold it to RifleChair for well under what it cost me. I supplied pictures for the purchase and then later shipped the targets and the documentation I had from Thomas. Thomas had given me a one page list of items he had checked.

The rifle was shipped and after a while RifleChair PM'd me to say he thought the barrel was indexed incorrectly by 2 degrees. I informed him that I didn't think so because I had paid Thomas to go through the rifle to check these things. After contacting Thomas myself, Thomas and I agreed to pay for the shipping of the rifle back and forth to RifleChair. I paid the way from RifleChair to Thomas and vice versa.

Thomas told me that RifleChair had fitted another muzzlebrake and he just thought that the brake had been incorrectly machined and was off. After that I heard nothing about the rifle until this posting.

At no time did anybody other than Thomas, including myself, work on this rifle while in my pocession but I have no knowledge of work done prior to my ownership. The only thing I did was install the rifle into a painted stock and change the rail to a cover.

Steve
 
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