Lee Factory Crimp Die

[mlehtovaara]

The lee bullet seating die applies a crimp, how is the FCD any different?

The Lee FCD dies are different for revolver rounds and semi rounds, and these both differ from rifle FCD dies.

Pistol FCD dies differ between revolver dies and semi auto dies as revolvers get a roll crimp(more to prevent bullets moving under recoil), and semi's get a taper crimp(more to focus on feeding/chambering reliably, and headspacing).

The pistol dies have a carbide sizer ring which is where the controversy stems from. This is not part of a seating/crimping die.

This carbide sizer can size soft lead bullets making them smaller than what they were originally sized at if you are using bullets sized larger than factory spec. With lead bullets it is very useful to have your bullets sized properly to the bore to improve accuracy, and prevent leading. The FCD will basically throw that benefit out the window.

 

[Skyhawk]

With lead bullets it is very useful to have your bullets sized properly to the bore to improve accuracy, and prevent leading. The FCD will basically throw that benefit out the window.

The FCD is adjustable.

 

[mlehtovaara]

The FCD is adjustable.

The crimp is but not the sizer as far as I know. I have read that you can remove the sizing ring but have not tried it.

The sizer is simply a carbide ring that the cartridge goes through. Don't see how that is adjustable, but would like to know.

 

[mlehtovaara]

This thread talks about removing the sizing ring to allow for cast bullets, etc.

h t t p://rugerforum.net/reloading/23065-fix-your-lee-factory-crimp-die.html

 

[hk33ka1]

Instead of removing the sizing ring, I bought a seperate Lee taper crimp die for $9 so I can choose how to crimp my pistol boolits (Lee Seating die, FCD, and taper crimp die all apply a taper crimp for most pistol rounds)

 

[Skyhawk]

The sizer is simply a carbide ring that the cartridge goes through. Don't see how that is adjustable, but would like to know.

Obviously the resizing ring isn't adjustable, but I've had no problems with it. I've pulled bullets and they were still .452. The resizing ring is much larger than what the full length sizer and decapper die case is. Take a case and throw it in the FCD to confirm.

My cases also still show the coke-bottle shape after going through the FCD. It doesn't seem to make any significant measurable difference in my rounds. If you're doing .454 with thicker casings, perhaps it's a different story. But all this Lee stuff I think is at least compatible with each other, considering their bullet resizer does .452.

If it was resizing my .452 inside the brass, the difference in the metal's "memory" would likely loosen the bullet and even allow me to rotate in inside the casing. Without the coke-bottle effect, the bullet might easily be pushed far into the casing upon feeding which may cause pressures to reach danger levels leading to a blow up and possible loss of fingers or even death.

If it was doing what you say to my .45 acp rounds, I definitely wouldn't be using it. But it's not doing that.

 

[trebor2880]

Ones for pistols work.

 

[Canuck44]

Obviously the resizing ring isn't adjustable, but I've had no problems with it. I've pulled bullets and they were still .452. The resizing ring is much larger than what the full length sizer and decapper die case is. Take a case and throw it in the FCD to confirm.

My cases also still show the coke-bottle shape after going through the FCD. It doesn't seem to make any significant measurable difference in my rounds. If you're doing .454 with thicker casings, perhaps it's a different story. But all this Lee stuff I think is at least compatible with each other, considering their bullet resizer does .452.

If it was resizing my .452 inside the brass, the difference in the metal's "memory" would likely loosen the bullet and even allow me to rotate in inside the casing. Without the coke-bottle effect, the bullet might easily be pushed far into the casing upon feeding which may cause pressures to reach danger levels leading to a blow up and possible loss of fingers or even death.

If it was doing what you say to my .45 acp rounds, I definitely wouldn't be using it. But it's not doing that.

The Lee FCD for pistols is designed to remove the coke bottle shape to your cartridge. If your cartridges retain the coke bottle look then you aren't using the die the way it is designed to be used. Set the die so it removes the coke bottle shape, pull the bullet and report the size of the diameter of the bullet after resizing the case.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Skyhawk]

The Lee FCD for pistols is designed to remove the coke bottle shape to your cartridge. If your cartridges retain the coke bottle look then you aren't using the die the way it is designed to be used. Set the die so it removes the coke bottle shape, pull the bullet and report the size of the diameter of the bullet after resizing the case.

Take Care

Bob

While I believe the outcome to be predictable, how does one "properly" adjust thier Lee FCD to reduce the size of its carbide resizing ring to the exact diameter of the case below the bullet base? And why would anyone do that,h considering the size difference is what prevents bullet setback - not crimp. Advising people to create insafe rounds that could potententially cause injury or death isnt responsible IMHO. That certainly isnt the purpose of the FCD.

 

[Canuck44]

While I believe the outcome to be predictable, how does one "properly" adjust thier Lee FCD to reduce the size of its carbide resizing ring to the exact diameter of the case below the bullet base? And why would anyone do that,h considering the size difference is what prevents bullet setback - not crimp. Advising people to create insafe rounds that could potententially cause injury or death isnt responsible IMHO. That certainly isnt the purpose of the FCD.

Are you serious? The FCD for pistol cartridges is designed to do what I described that is resize the whole case and get rid of the bulge created by the bullet.

Cast bullets are retained in the case by friction. For autos that headspace on the mouth all you do is remove the belling on the case to provide adequate "crimp".

The Lee FCD removes the bulge created by the bullet. In so doing it reduces the diameter of the lead bullet which is why I think they are a solution to problem that doesn't exist. What it does do is make pretty cartridges without a bulge, a bulge that effects nothing in the way the cartridges load in the gun. Last year I shot over 12K cases with the bulge with nary a hicup.

You might want to explain how my post suggests anything in the way of creating injury or death. I am all ears.

Here are two bullets. The one on the left was loaded into a case and then run through a FCD, the one on the right was loaded and crimped with a Dillon Crimping die. After I ran the cartridge throught the FCD the case was straight and the bottle shape had been removed. Both bullets were then pulled. Both bullets were originally sized with a RCBS lubricator and sized to .452 prior to loading. The bullet on the left now has a diameter of .450 while the bullet on the right measures .452. Which one do you think will prerform better. If you look closely you will see a ring above the lube groove where the the bullet has been sized down. You will also notice at the bottom of the lube groove where lead has been smeared into the lube grove from the resizing.

Here is what one mould maker had to say about the FCD
"Do not use the Lee Carbide (pistol) Factory Crimp Die to provide the crimp! The carbide sizing ring at the base of the die will reduce the size of your cast bullet. " From this site:http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_5_12&products_id=1



Take Care

Bob

 

[Skyhawk]

Are you serious? The FCD for pistol cartridges is designed to do what I described that is resize the whole case and get rid of the bulge created by the bullet.

Says you, but not Lee Precision. But since you're all ears...

The tension that keeps the bullet from experiencing setback while being chambered is evident from the size difference in diameter along your case. This is true for all “straight walled” pistol caliber reloads, and the difference normally ranges between .005 - .006 depending on caliber. For example, for .45 ACP the case belling inside diameter below the base of a .451” bullet should be around .445” to ensure a good grip. There is a very serious danger of setback and thus extreme pressures when firing cartridges with a differential specification much less than this. Removing all signs of expansion where the bullet is seated in a finished round and resizing the entire case diameter to the exact dimensions to that which the resize & decapping die originally did would make for an extremely unsafe round. For more information on the subject try reading anything by Pat Sweeney, such as the “Gun Digest Book of the 1911” or “Big Fat Book of the .45 ACP”. You’ll find out that what you proposed is dangerous indeed, and thus in my opinion irresponsible. (Dimensions provided above were quoted from these books.)

Luckily the resizing ring in the FCD is much larger in diameter than the sizing performed by the resize & decapping die (by exactly .006” according to my own measurement), so it’s impossible to do what you proposed using the proper FCD for the caliber you’re loading. And this makes sense, because the intent of the carbide FCD ring is not to make dangerous loads, but to resize if they are out of spec so they will chamber properly. The expansion caused by a .452 lead bullet should not expand your case out of spec in civilian brass, which obviously explains why my .452 sized boolits I cast from WWs are NOT being resized at all by the FCD. And I’ve put thousands upon thousands of rounds through that die without it downsizing my boolits inside the brass.

In fact, my home cast 230gr LRN squeezed into casings of various brands and put through the Lee FCD give me consistently the following dimensions for my finished cartridges:

Crimp at top of case (as adjusted by me): .471
Brass at fattest part of bullet: .473
Brass below base of bullet: .467
OAL (as adjusted by me): 1.265

The question this comes down to isn’t speculating about “Lee’s secret purpose of the FCD”, but instead why it works for me and thousands of others, but not for you? If you have your die set up properly according to instructions and you are using standard civilian brass that’s still within COAL spec, then perhaps you have a defective die. One guy I read about on another forum apparently solved his .452 FCD resizing problem by calling Lee and having them replace his defective die that likely had the wrong diameter ring installed. Considering Lee sent him a replacement for free, I suggest you likewise give them a call and explain your problem.

 

[Canuck44]

Did you read what Ranch Dog had to say? You didn't answer how my post was about to cause injury or death.

When you change your cartridge from the bottle neck or swollen case from your .452 bullet to a smooth case where do you think the loss in diameter goes to? Incidently all my .45acp cases run through a cae gauge just fine even with the slight bulge from the .452 bullet.

If you think your lead bullets aren't being resized by the die good on you, keep thinking it.

Take Care

Bob

 

[jimbo45]

no problems with any calibres i load with them

 

[Skyhawk]

If you think your lead bullets aren't being resized by the die good on you, keep thinking it.

I clearly stated in multiple posts that I've measured and confirmed that my .45 ACP .452 boolits are not being resized by the FCD by actually measuring them, and I provided the measurements of my finished rounds.

Are you calling me a liar? Good God man, what would be the point? I don't own stock in that particular firm. Heck, Lee Precision isn't even a publicly traded company. I could supply pics of my caliper measurements, but of course you would only say that I've faked it all by calibrating it to other than zero.

And I have no idea what you mean about a "smooth case". If you mean perfectly the same diameter for the entire length of a finished reloaded round to .467", people would be losing hand parts and dying from blowups. Extreme bullet setback is no joke. To suggest that this is "safe" is irresponsible.

If any newbie reloader takes your advice and does somehow manage to resize their finish rounds the way you suggest by using non-spec dies and injury or death results, it would not be a good thing - for you or for them (for them especially).

 

[Skyhawk]

I should also add that it's very telling that you didn't address a single specific point I brought up in my post you responded to. As I mentioned, the safety measurements were not mine but taken straight from the books I referenced. Lee Precision seems to believe them also since the sizing I measure is consistent with what the literature states. Considering how litigation is in the USA, it's not surprising that Lee keeps within these safety specifications.

All that being said, if someone slugs their barrel and finds that it requires a boolit somewhat larger than spec (say .455 for example), it's more than likely that the FCD will swag it by reducing its diameter within spec because the outside diameter of the brass might exceed 0.476 which will NOT chamber well in most 1911s.

But if it does chamber in your type of firearm and your bore slugs to such an oversized bullet greater than .452, then as another poster said the Lee Taper Crimp Die should be used instead to prevent sizing of the bullet itself within the brass.

 

[Canuck44]

I should also add that it's very telling that you didn't address a single specific point I brought up in my post you responded to. As I mentioned, the safety measurements were not mine but taken straight from the books I referenced. Lee Precision seems to believe them also since the sizing I measure is consistent with what the literature states. Considering how litigation is in the USA, it's not surprising that Lee keeps within these safety specifications.

Is this where you think not using the die will cause bodily injury or death?

All that being said, if someone slugs their barrel and finds that it requires a boolit somewhat larger than spec (say .455 for example), it's more than likely that the FCD will swag it by reducing its diameter within spec because the outside diameter of the brass might exceed 0.476 which will NOT chamber well in most 1911s.

If you are sizing your cases down to .452 what diameter do you think your lead bullets are?

Try this formula .452- case wall thickness

But if it does chamber in your type of firearm and your bore slugs to such an oversized bullet greater than .452, then as another poster said the Lee Taper Crimp Die should be used instead to prevent sizing of the bullet itself within the brass.

Did you read the quote from one bullet maker quoted above?

Incidently the outside diameter stated by SAMMI for the .45acp case is .473. .455 is .18 smaller thatn SAMMI specs for the case not "somewhat larger than spec (say .455 for example)". To perform well and to prevent gas cutting lead bullets should be at least 1/1000th over bore diameter.

jimbo45 all my rifle FCDs work great and use them in the five rifle calibers I load for.

Take Care

Bob
ps I answered your quote in bold for clarity I am not yelling.

 

[Skyhawk]

Is this where you think not using the die will cause bodily injury or death?

Anything that will cause bullet setback during chambering can possibly cause bodily injury or death. It's one of the things we shooters and reloaders avoid like the plague.

If you are sizing your cases down to .452 what diameter do you think your lead bullets are?

Huh? Where did I say I resized my cases to .452? I think I made it perfectly clear my cases were not being resized at all with the FCD. In fact, I gave the figure that my cases were sized to .473. Are you just making sh!t up? What is wrong with you? I resize my bullets to .452 as I said. You do know what a boolit *bullet* is, don't you? Are you saying you don't know that bullets are? After all your posts? Yikes! I hope you're not representative of average Canadians and their knowledge of firearms! No wonder they want to take our sports tools away!

 

[Skyhawk]

Incidently the outside diameter stated by SAMMI for the .45acp case is .473. .455 is .18 smaller thatn SAMMI specs for the case not "somewhat larger than spec (say .455 for example)".

I think I made it perfectly clear that the diameter I mentioned for .455 oversize was for the bullet, not the brass or case. You do know the difference between a bullet and the case... right?

I really think this group needs a sticky for this one. Bullet size versus case size, and safety considerations about possible setback are important issues IMO. This is especially true when we have posters like Canuck44 spouting off such potentially dangerous misinformation.

 

[Canuck44]

I really think this group needs a sticky for this one. Bullet size versus case size, and safety considerations about possible setback are important issues IMO. This is especially true when we have posters like Canuck44 spouting off such potentially dangerous misinformation.

Ah so if you don't use a Lee FCD you are courting death and destruction. For al of us who simply remove the belling on our cases, and rely on case friction to retain our bullets this will come as some surprise.

Are you aware of the fact the .45acp case is held in by friction from the case walls?, no probably not.

You ignore the fact that when you resize the case you are resizing the bullet as well. See the warning from Ranch Dog quoted earlier.

You go on about the need for oversize bullets in a 1911 barrel. Well if you size down the case with your mythical .455 bullet that caused the bulge in the case what do you think happens to the bullet? To save yourself time in looking it up take a peek at the pictures I posted.

Like I said earlier if you think the Lee FCD is the answer to your problem fly at it.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Skyhawk]

Where in this conversation have I ever said that not using the FCD would cause death or even that its use is required for safety? Perhaps rereading my posts from the beginning on this thread might be helpfull for your comprehension. Then call Lee and have them replace your defective die.

And I will repeat this for the 6th time, the FCD is NOT resizing my cases because they are within spec before being put through the die. You can continue to insinuate that im a liar, but frankly im past caring.