Reading the wind.

A

AKD

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First let me intro you to my best friend.

Dandelion-seed-head-blowi-001.jpg


haha. I got lucky yesterday and had a ton of dandelion seeds blowing around. I was in a farm field shooting 900y and the wind was blowing left, right, upside down, you name it, between me and the target. Enough seeds were floating around it was like a perfect live data of the wind. Real joy to shoot in.

Anyway I thought I would post a wind topic for us to talk about tips and such for wind.

- The most common trick is if its blowing at 90 degrees account for full, 45 account for half.

One big thing I would like to harp on from experience is dont worry about the wind were your at. look at the target and 1/4 of space before the target. Watch the trees.

Best tip however would be instinctive shooting. wind is always changing. Trust your gut for corrections as well.


plz share yours.
 
AKD said:
First let me intro you to my best friend.



- The most common trick is if its blowing at 90 degrees account for full, 45 account for half.

One big thing I would like to harp on from experience is dont worry about the wind were your at. look at the target and 1/4 of space before the target. Watch the trees.

Best tip however would be instinctive shooting. wind is always changing. Trust your gut for corrections as well.


plz share yours.
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Arguably, the wind at the muzzle is more important than down range. Think of it as taking a bearing with a compass. The smallest deflection at the muzzle will be greatly amplified by the time it reaches the target. If you are looking for a good read, pick up "The wind book for Rifle shooters"
 
AKD said:
- The most common trick is if its blowing at 90 degrees account for full, 45 account for half.
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1 or 5 O'clock is half. 2 or 4 O'clock is *0.87 for example. It isn't a simple components of motion thing, has do do with how much the bullet gets slowed down.

http://www.gun-blog.com/2009/09/wind-and-shooting.html

I was killing your little friends in the garden today, I didn't realise, sorry :).
 
Budweiser360 said:
Arguably, the wind at the muzzle is more important than down range. Think of it as taking a bearing with a compass. The smallest deflection at the muzzle will be greatly amplified by the time it reaches the target. If you are looking for a good read, pick up "The wind book for Rifle shooters"
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All depends on where you are shooting. If your sheltered the slightest bit then your wind could be totally different then the wind down range.

In my opinion all wind matters. You have to be aware of how the wind flows threw your shooting area.
 
From an iron sighted target rifle shooters point of view.....

A) wind flags lie
B) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
C) the first 1/3 of the distance shot is the most important part of wind reading.
D) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
E) If you have to shoot in a boil come down 1/2 moa.
F) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
G) If you are making 1/4 moa adjustments at long range you're likey going to wind yourself out.
H) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
I) If you can see a change, it is worth at least 1 MOA.
J) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
K) 1/4 moa sight change will change your POI by 2 MOA.
L) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
M) Shooting is only interesting when the wind is blowing, otherwise everyone is tied for first.
N) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
O) If you make a 6 MOA change and guess the wind right on you will drop a point to elevation.
P) If you second guess the wind, you will be wrong.
Q) believe your wind graff
R) you will learn more wind reading by shooting in the wind with a .22 at 100 yards than you will by reading a book.
 
Budweiser360 said:
Arguably, the wind at the muzzle is more important than down range. Think of it as taking a bearing with a compass. The smallest deflection at the muzzle will be greatly amplified by the time it reaches the target. If you are looking for a good read, pick up "The wind book for Rifle shooters"
Click to expand...


really it all matters. no argue in that. I personally just find when im shooting long at like a 1000 its very important to know whats going on down there. I keep my eye on it more because lets be honest, if a strong gust is going thew were im sitting i usually hold off for the moment or at least naturally add it in.

Ive hird of the book but never really see it at chapters.


PS. Im not new at shooting or this internet thing. Starting a post about wind is wild grenade.
as long as the shooters methods work for them.
 
AKD said:
Ive hird of the book but never really see it at chapters.

PS. Im not new at shooting or this internet thing. Starting a post about wind is wild grenade. as long as the shooters methods work for them.
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No it's not in Chapters, sadly. It is available from a few places, go to the authors' web page and see - http://www.milcun.com/pubs.html


Juster said:
1 or 5 O'clock is half. 2 or 4 O'clock is *0.87 for example. It isn't a simple components of motion thing, has do do with how much the bullet gets slowed down.

http://www.gun-blog.com/2009/09/wind-and-shooting.html
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For those mathematically inclined, the crosswind component of a wind blowing at anything other than 90 degrees (with 90 degrees meaning directly across the range), is the sine of the angle.

So head-on, sine(0) = 0 --> this means that there is (duh!) no crosswind component.

From 1 o'clock which is 30 degrees, sine(30) = 0.5 --> so this wind is worth 50%

From 45 degrees, sine(45) = 0.71 -> so this wind is worth 70% (or "about 3/4")

From 2 o'clock which is 60 degrees, sine(60) = 0.86 -> so this wind is worth, in my oh-so--technical-evaluation, "damn near full value"

From 3 o'clock which is 90 degrees, sine(90) = 1.0 -> not surprisingly, this is full value.

For the non-mathematically-inclined, there is a much, much easier way to figure this out, that is visually intuitive and requires absolutely no math or calculations. In fact just by looking at the angle wind flag you can directly see what proportion of the full crosswind value you should put on. Perhaps others have seen this too and can better describe how they this is done?
 
maynard that is an awfully good list of distilled wind wisdom. Each of those points on their own could be profitably discussed for hours and hours.

While you say that it is from an iron sight shooters point of view, I have shot both and I have to say that those are pretty darn universal truths (Except for one, and there is a very interesting reason why..... and understanding the reason will help somebody become a better scope shooter and a better iron sights shooter. Double bonus points to anybody who spots it and explains the reason!)

I also notice a distinct pattern too in your list; in my opinion it is the single best piece of wind reading advice.

maynard said:
From an iron sighted target rifle shooters point of view.....

A) wind flags lie
B) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
C) the first 1/3 of the distance shot is the most important part of wind reading.
D) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
E) If you have to shoot in a boil come down 1/2 moa.
F) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
G) If you are making 1/4 moa adjustments at long range you're likey going to wind yourself out.
H) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
I) If you can see a change, it is worth at least 1 MOA.
J) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
K) 1/4 moa sight change will change your POI by 2 MOA.
L) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
M) Shooting is only interesting when the wind is blowing, otherwise everyone is tied for first.
N) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
O) If you make a 6 MOA change and guess the wind right on you will drop a point to elevation.
P) If you second guess the wind, you will be wrong.
Q) believe your wind graff
R) you will learn more wind reading by shooting in the wind with a .22 at 100 yards than you will by reading a book.
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some good information in this thread for sure. what youre saying is use bigger flags right? ;)

heres one, i didnt see it posted, but at what range does wind start to have an affect on the bullet? 100y im sure as long as you arent in a tornado it wont cause it to move off course too far. where would you start to notice it? 300 and further?
 
rnbra-shooter said:
maynard that is an awfully good list of distilled wind wisdom. Each of those points on their own could be profitably discussed for hours and hours.

While you say that it is from an iron sight shooters point of view, I have shot both and I have to say that those are pretty darn universal truths (Except for one, and there is a very interesting reason why..... and understanding the reason will help somebody become a better scope shooter and a better iron sights shooter. Double bonus points to anybody who spots it and explains the reason!)

I also notice a distinct pattern too in your list; in my opinion it is the single best piece of wind reading advice.
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Any chance it's E, because if you shoot in a boil you'll likely go straight down, so you would actually ADD 1/2 MOA if you MUST shoot in a boil?? I've shot in a boil before and it's always gone straight down, perfectly in line with the group windage wise, but straight down. I could be wrong though, you guys have a helluva lot more experience than I.
 
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maynard said:
From an iron sighted target rifle shooters point of view.....

A) wind flags lie
B) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
C) the first 1/3 of the distance shot is the most important part of wind reading.
D) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
E) If you have to shoot in a boil come down 1/2 moa.
F) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
G) If you are making 1/4 moa adjustments at long range you're likey going to wind yourself out.
H) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
I) If you can see a change, it is worth at least 1 MOA.
J) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
K) 1/4 moa sight change will change your POI by 2 MOA.
L) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
M) Shooting is only interesting when the wind is blowing, otherwise everyone is tied for first.
N) Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone.
O) If you make a 6 MOA change and guess the wind right on you will drop a point to elevation.
P) If you second guess the wind, you will be wrong.
Q) believe your wind graff
R) you will learn more wind reading by shooting in the wind with a .22 at 100 yards than you will by reading a book.
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Abso-freakin-lutely.

Ladies and gentlemen, Maynard shoots TR. That is a sport that uses open sights, bullets with comparatively poor BC's and is shoot off the elbows at distances of up to 1000 yards. These guys know more about reading conditions than virtually any other sport. They shoot ONE caliber and ONE bullet and they know it EXTREMELY well.

Put the books away, get involved in the sport at a club level and get squadded with someone who knows more than you. I promise you will learn more aboiut reading conditions in one afternoon of shooting and hangin out with experts than you will from ten year of hanging out here.

FWIW, I have become a disciple of mirage-reading... for me it is more reliable than wind.
 
I will play i am going with O
maynard said:
O) If you make a 6 MOA change and guess the wind right on you will drop a point to elevation.
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and to clarify I believe he means "guess the wind correctly"
A 6moa change in wind should not affect your elevation IF you know the properties of bullet spin and right hand twist barrels.

if the wind is coming from the left to right and you spin on 6moa of left wind you will be shooting low as the spin of the bullet from a right hand twist barrel will be pushing against the wind and drop your elevation. If you are shooting in a right to left wind and you spin on 6moa of right you elevation will be high as the right hand twist will be going with the wind, in the same manner as shooting into or against a head wind.
aerodynamic_jump_target.png


Please also note that the twist rate of your barrel will affect your elevation in this situation a faster twist will push your bullet higher or lower then a slower twist.

Actually i am going to hedge my bet and say i haven't encountered situation E) either but as Tom is a sling shooter with open sights and i am a scope shooter with F/TR his situation is valid to him but does not appear to agree with my shooting as my aiming point does not change on a vertical line it would change on a horizontal one as you need to take into account spin drift at 1000yrds depending on the wind setting you would need to add or take off wind to compensate for spin drift at distance.

As a final note i was taught to never shoot in a boil as the wind is just resting before it goes to its normal condition or changes direction.
 
FWIW I have not been able to observe an elevation effect due to wind. I am not saying that it does not exist, I am just saying that I have not observed it. (There are other things too that I have not observed, e.g. changes in POI as a function of cheek or butt pressure, but let's stick to wind stuff in this thread)

Also, some people say that mirage displaces the apparent location of the aiming mark and therefore you need to compensate not only for the wind that is blowing the bullet but also for the shift of the aiming mark. The idea here is that if you are shooting in a steady wind in bright light with a visible mirage and have your sights set (say to 6 Left) to be hitting the centre of the target, if a cloud comes over the range but the wind does not change, it is said that the aiming mark is no longer shifted by the mirage (because it has disappeared) and you'll have to change your sights to (say) 5 Left in order to continue to hit centre. This same idea applies to a boiling (rising) mirage, the suggestion is that it will shift the apparent location of the aiming mark a half minute or a minute higher therefore you need to aim 1/2 MOA or 1 MOA lower in order to hit centre. FWIW I have not been able to observe this myself, but I do know a lot of very good and successful shooters who believe this, shoot accordingly, and win a helluva lot.

I have heard some top shooters say you should try to avoid shooting in a boil, I have heard other really great shooters say that shooting in a boil is a gift and you should take it, since you know what the wind is (zero) when the mirage is in a boil.

It's probably best to wait a day or so before announcing which of maynards rules is, in my opinion, different between F-Class shooters and iron sight TR shooters.
 
To be clear, the above mentioned points have no scientific reasons. These are just things that have happened to me and the reason I shoot a lot more 49's than 50's.:mad:

Trevor60, plain and simple reason for the dropped point to elevation. First you need a big set of brass balls to make a 6 minute change between shots. Now with the big s**t eating grin on your face (because you have the wind figured out) it changes your cheek pressure and the shot goes out the bottom or out the top:p Seriously, I think it has more to do with rushing the shot and trying to get it off before the wind changes again.

Shooting irons is very different than shooting scope. Things change between when you last looked thru the spotting scope until you fire the shot and get back to the spotting scope. I have seen where I was shooting with 6 or 7 minutes left wind. I took about 15 second to get the shot off, when I got back on the scope everything looked the same. However in that 15 seconds it took to fire, the mirage when to a boil, then back to 6-7 left. The shot was right on the waterline in the dirt between the target frames.:redface:
 
"Sometimes it is better to just leave the sight knobs alone."

What maynard said about leaving the sight settings alone works good for me once I am zeroed in I wait for the condition .

As far as mirage goes I don't know if the bullet will go high or low but from what I have seen if there is wind and you shoot in mirage the bullet will go in the direction the wind was coming from.
 
Obtunded said:
Abso-freakin-lutely.

FWIW, I have become a disciple of mirage-reading... for me it is more reliable than wind.
Click to expand...

I'm a firm believer also on the mirage at the other known distance mounds, short focus you spotting scope and look for the mirage vector/ direction and intensity... really easy once you get on to it.

Like Obtunded said, just get out and shoot lots of LR with your Provincial Rifle Association, that experience alone will beat out any software/ipod/smart phone/ digital gadget/ anemometer (Kestral ??)/ book/ manual or CD player. :D

I can humbly say that I have been taught very well by the masters in the ORA and OSA; all talented people! :D Lots of great advice around here!

Cheers,
Barney
 
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