9mm - exceeding "Never Exceed"

harbl_the_cat

harbl_the_cat

BANNED
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
BANNED
Rating - 100%
53   0   0
So hopefully I'll still have both hands after this experiment ends, but here's the gig.

I have various loads but I tend to never exceed the "Never Exceed" load listed in my Lee's Modern Reloader guide book.

For the longest time, that worked fine because I was just running my loads through a glock 17, and they shot reliably and as accurate as I could shoot them. Recently, I started running a Kel Tec Sub 2000 now, and am having a lot of FTE's. After cleaning and inspecting, I've concluded it must be because my loads are too light.

I'm loading with a Lee Pro 1000 with the auto disk powder loader. I've loaded about 2500 rounds, having fired about 500, 124 gn copper plated, with 4.0 gn of accurate #2 with no problems through my g17. Running about 100 rounds through the Sub-2000, I have about a 5-10% FTE rate.

Lee's modern reloader says the never exceed is 4.1gn for 124gn copper plated, but unfortunately, the auto-disk loaders disks only have a volume of .40, .43, .46, and .49cc, with 4.0cc being yielding 4.0 gn.

I tried loading some 124 gn with the .43cc setting (having 4.3gn) and through the Sub 2000, it was still having FTE problems. This evening I loaded 10 rounds using the .46cc and .49cc settings, yielding 4.8gn and 5.1gn respectively.

I'll try them out next time I'm at the range and let everyone know if I still have all my parts :)

Does anyone have any thoughts?
 
Last edited:
What you need to to is to Chrono your load !!!!

I do not load 9mm and i do not use plated but i looked it up

4" barrel
Accurate EDITION 3.4

Lead Bullets
No.2 124 LC RN 4.0g 895 4.6g 1,017 31,100psi 1.095 length

so 4.0g is the start load for Lead

jacketed
No.2 125 SIE FMJ 4.2g 930 4.7g 1,057 29,500psi 1.095 length

Some one that loads 9mm should be able to help you
 
Slug the barrel. Many 9mm have large bores. I have a 9mm that measures 0.357". Such a large bore will let gas escape past the bullet leading to lower pressures.
I use cast bullets in this one.
 
I haven't used #2 in 9mm, but I have used literally pounds and pounds of it in 38spl. in my experiences, #2 shows a pretty good increase in pressure for a small increase in charge weight. 4.0gr flattens primers pretty good in 38spl with a 158gr lead bullet.

Be careful. I would suggest perhaps using another bulkier powder powder that gave you smaller increments in charge weight per disk. And yes, when playing with max loads or exceeding them a chrono is a must.
 
I would recommend not going over the maximum load listed, instead try different powders and/or different weight bullets. Maybe your gun is just finicky what it shoots. I would try a heavier bullet first and see how that works for you.
 
Question Do you weigh the powder that has dropped?
Lee powder disks usually throw light charges. My guess is that its not dropping the amount you assume it is. I say this having owned 5 lee powder dispensers at one time. Not one dropped what the card said it should. I measured it on a RCBS ChargeMaster.
 
"...started running a Kel Tec Sub 2000..." You need to work up a load for it. No two firearms will shoot the same ammo the same way. Lee gets their data from other sources. Usually the powder maker, but they do no testing themselves.
CC's are a unit of volume that have nothing to do with reloading.
"...so 4.0g is the start load for Lead..." You may want to read the manual again. 4.0 of Accurate #2 is close to max for a plated bullet.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf
 
Besides checking that charge weight is correct, it should also be noted that Lee data tends to be conservative. I would try the closest charge you can get to Accurate Arms' published maximum for lead bulllets and watch for severe primer flattening and/or cratering.

A slower powder might also me a better choice to give you enough power to cycle your carbine.
 
There is lots of data out there for +P+ 9mm loading. Most guys running 9mm major in IPSC run in the 1370+ fps range with 124s. IVI clocks out of my G17 at 1350 fps... However, your are unlikely to find these loads in a published loading manual. Also, (stating the obvious for the loading police) your gun should be built for it and will still take a beating.

I would suspect that something is of issue if it isn't running with regular loaded 9mm factory ammo.
 
You might also consider moving to a heavier bullet, for example a 147 - heavier bullets have a slightly longer dwell time in the barrel which gives the action a slightly longer pulse. Also with the 124's Blue Dot seems to give good pressure at sub maximum loads. As far as the Lee Disk measure is concerned, the actual charge weight for a given cavity will change from Lot to Lot, but generally I'd agree the charges dropped are lighter than claimed.
 
As mentioned, the Lee data seems to be a little on the light side. When I work up a new load, I check the data in three different manuals to see what each book says for the powder I want to use.

Once I have the common range I load based on the data at the halfway point and work from there. Watch for pressure signs and verify your powder drop with a scale. The chrony is an important part of the workup process as well.

Cactus
 
Not to be a ####, but....

Could be the fact you are shooting a Kel-Tec. What was wrong with your Glock?

Try a box of factory rounds, and see where that leads you. If it runs them fine, but your reloads are FTF/FTE then you know it is not the gun.... though I suspect that it IS the gun.

(Don't you love it when someone starts a post with "Not trying to be a ####..." cause you know they are about to be).
 
COULD be the gun. might be the load as well.

try getting good groups at 50-100 yards with a glock 17!

Pudelpointer said:
Not to be a ####, but....

Could be the fact you are shooting a Kel-Tec. What was wrong with your Glock?

Try a box of factory rounds, and see where that leads you. If it runs them fine, but your reloads are FTF/FTE then you know it is not the gun.... though I suspect that it IS the gun.

(Don't you love it when someone starts a post with "Not trying to be a ####..." cause you know they are about to be).
Click to expand...
 
I've been loading 115gr LRN and JHP with Win 231 for my SUB2000 and I have found that the SUB likes stout loads. Started with LRN @ 3.8 grains and had short stroking, increased to the max (as per Winchesters 2006 manual) and the SUB runs great. Runs fine with factory Federal 115gr ball and Fiocchi 115gr ball.
 
legi0n said:
Slug the barrel. Many 9mm have large bores. I have a 9mm that measures 0.357". Such a large bore will let gas escape past the bullet leading to lower pressures.
I use cast bullets in this one.
Click to expand...

If you are talking about peak pressure only, barrel diameter makes no difference in a cartridge like 9mm. Peak pressure is reached before the bullet has travelled 1/4". Meaning it hasn't even left the case.

Case volume, volume under the base of the bullet, makes a HUGE difference in peak pressure, in small capacity, straightwall cases.

This means if you load a "short" 124gr bullet to the same OAL as a long 124gr, there will be more volume in the case with the short bullet, and hence, lower peak pressure and lower velocity.
 
enefgee said:
You might also consider moving to a heavier bullet, for example a 147 - heavier bullets have a slightly longer dwell time in the barrel which gives the action a slightly longer pulse. Also with the 124's Blue Dot seems to give good pressure at sub maximum loads. As far as the Lee Disk measure is concerned, the actual charge weight for a given cavity will change from Lot to Lot, but generally I'd agree the charges dropped are lighter than claimed.
Click to expand...
your not suppose to use 147 gr in barrels that are longer than 10 inches i would go with 115gr and work up a load near max
 
As mentionned in another post, i'd try a box of factory ammo in the Kel-tech before anything else. Much safer and you will know of the issue is your gun or your ammo.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom