Building "Match" Grade .22

Blastattack

Blastattack

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Hey guys, i need some assistance regarding sights for my .22 build. I realize that this may be moved to the Rimfire forum, but I it's best directed at the Long-Range and High-power crowd.

First a little bit of background: I'm currently building a .22 that is both competition and long range (which is about 300m/y for a .22 :p) capable. The rifle is a Remington Model 580 (single shot, very similar to the 540 series of rifles) and has been rebarrelled with a Ron Smith 22" SS Gain Twist (1:~40 to 1:~17.2 at muzzle). The rifle is currently being set up with a Picatinny rail for scope mounting, and a yet to be finalized Iron Sight solution. I want the rifle to be able to competently sport either system, and keep both systems "co-witnessed" to the same sighting plane to reduce adjustment between scope and Irons.

Now, the hard part. I have tentatively decided to go with the Redfield style base that somehow attaches to the Picatinny stock (either using/making a Picatinny adapter or by milling off the rear slots and making it into a large dovetail). However, the major issue is with positioning. According to Alan Warner, Redfield bases are a trapezoidal shape, the flat being 0.238 -0.002, with the angles being "30 degrees from the horizon top and bottom", and the vertical face of his bases are offset .812 from the centerline of the rifle. assuming the previous is correct, and in order to get my "co-witness" , I need to know; how far does the described trapezoid protrude from the rest of the base, and approximately how high should I position the trapezoid, given that the center of my front sight is 1.875" above bore centerline?

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated! Cheers!

P.S. I am training to be a machinist and have access to machinery on a daily basis. Please assume work and material are free.
 
Sounds like you need a sight like a Centra (see Sinclait Int'l) that fits a Picatinny rail. Then made something like a Right Sight (see Stalings Machine) or some other type is ladder front sight so you can remove the front sight, but still leave the base on when you use the scope.
 
I was looking at the Centra as a possible solution, among others. RPA, Phoenix Precision and Zelenak make Picatinny/Weaver sights, and minus RPA and adding REG tooling, Warner Precision and Redfield, make Redfield base sights. I have encountered two issues though; everything but the Redfield (Palma or International) are $400-$600 US, compared to $100-$200 for the Redfield. And seemingly none of them have a visible Canadian distributor. However, as you mentioned, Centra is on the Sinclair site, but I worry about their ability to ship to Canada. I would kinda like to start off on the more affordable side, but it would appear Redfields are getting scarce and the rest are just plain better.

I also have a solution for the front sight (though after reading about the Rightsight, it is sounding more and more appealing); it will be a removable band sporting a standard dovetail. It's a stop-gap measure, but it won't cost me $400 up front, and will use some of the parts I have on hand, and get me some more machine time.

It's one heckuva challenge trying to figure all this stuff out. So many varying products, and a complete lack of accessible reviews make it that much harder to find out what is good, what is best, and what just works. It's damn good thing I've decided my future scope, one less thing to worry about. On another note, Thank you for echoing some of the voices in my head. Sometimes you just need someone to confirm what you're already thinking.
 
With the rear sight mount so high on the Picatinny rail, you may need a tall front sight. That it the only reason I mention a ladder front sight. Another option might be the built a tall front sight on a bloop tube arrangement and just remove the bloop tube when shooting with the scope.
 
Not the best open sights in the world but why not modify a lyman side mount open sight?

They can be kept low over the pic rail. dirt cheap and you can machine the eye piece to suit. then mount whatever front site fits your needs.

you can likely find lyman open sights for $50 to $100.

If you can find them, anschutz made a bunch of great sites that ended up on CIL 22's way back when. Likely in a parts box at gunshow.

Jerry
 
maynard said:
With the rear sight mount so high on the Picatinny rail, you may need a tall front sight. That it the only reason I mention a ladder front sight. Another option might be the built a tall front sight on a bloop tube arrangement and just remove the bloop tube when shooting with the scope.
Click to expand...

That would certainly work, and likely wouldn't be to hard to machine, plus if I make the diameters the standard .750 or .8125 I could readily mount what is commercially available if i decide to upgrade.

Mystic Precision said:
Not the best open sights in the world but why not modify a lyman side mount open sight?

They can be kept low over the pic rail. dirt cheap and you can machine the eye piece to suit. then mount whatever front site fits your needs.

you can likely find lyman open sights for $50 to $100.

If you can find them, anschutz made a bunch of great sites that ended up on CIL 22's way back when. Likely in a parts box at gunshow.

Jerry
Click to expand...

The Lyman is an option, but not much of an improvement over my current Mossberg S330 sights. The Anschutz would also be a decent solution, and I imagine making a Picatinny-to-Dovetail wouldn't be exceptionally hard to do... I guess perusing the next big gunshow might be worthwhile, or maybe I'll save up to take the plunge and get myself an RPA or similar.


Another question: Trigger. Should I modify my current trigger for Engagement, Overtravel and Weight (Internet show promises of a few ounces), or should I go the easy route and buy myself a Timney Remington 788 Trigger (which apparently adjusts to about 1.5 lbs)?
 
Blastattack said:
Now, the hard part. I have tentatively decided to go with the Redfield style base that somehow attaches to the Picatinny stock (either using/making a Picatinny adapter or by milling off the rear slots and making it into a large dovetail). However, the major issue is with positioning. According to Alan Warner, Redfield bases are a trapezoidal shape, the flat being 0.238 -0.002, with the angles being "30 degrees from the horizon top and bottom", and the vertical face of his bases are offset .812 from the centerline of the rifle. assuming the previous is correct, and in order to get my "co-witness" , I need to know; how far does the described trapezoid protrude from the rest of the base, and approximately how high should I position the trapezoid, given that the center of my front sight is 1.875" above bore centerline?

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated! Cheers!

P.S. I am training to be a machinist and have access to machinery on a daily basis. Please assume work and material are free.
Click to expand...

Are you still looking for an answer to your question? I could take a photo and make some measurements for you (I have a Warner rear sight on my target rifle).

BTW the Warner rear sight, Centra, etc that you see for $400-$600 are top-of-the-line rear sights. You would see them or their equivalents on the rifles used in the Palma Match (the world championships of long range rifle shooting). They are gorgeous pieces of work, which you as a machinist would probably appreciate even more than the average shooter.

Sights made for fullbore shooting (such as the Warner, Centra, Trakker, Central, etc) have some characteristics that are usually missing on sights made for smallbore rifles or 300m ISSF rifles:
  • A lot of adjustment range. At least 50 minutes of movement in Elevation and Windage, and in some sights even more
  • a scale that can be read, so that the exact sight setting can be recorded in a notebook and later returned too. This is needed because fullbore target rifle shooting is done at several different distances

If you want to shoot your .22 at 200-300m you should make sure that whatever sight you choose will have enough adjustment range to get you there. Any fullbore sight will, but most smallbore sights probably won't.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
If you want to shoot your .22 at 200-300m you should make sure that whatever sight you choose will have enough adjustment range to get you there. Any fullbore sight will, but most smallbore sights probably won't.
Click to expand...

Hence the reason for a ladder front sight. Also most fullbore rear sights are in 1/4 MOA clicks, while smallbore sights are 1/6 MOA (at least Anschutz sights are). IIRC the come up from 50 yards to 100 yards on my Anschutz is something like 40 or 44 clicks. Dan is also correct about smallbore sights not having a readable usefull scale, so it is a pain in the ass to count clicks. Also smallbore sights turn the opposite way than most fullbore sights :bangHead:.
 
Look at target sights built for Brno rimfire rifles. These can be purchased for under $200.00 for a front and rear set. They both fit on dovetails and have readable scales.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
Are you still looking for an answer to your question? I could take a photo and make some measurements for you (I have a Warner rear sight on my target rifle).
Click to expand...

I would love photos, and measurements, as many as you are willing to take. Also, would it be possible to remove and replace the turrets? And if so, do you think there would be enough space to put in two to two-and-a-half times as many detent grooves to allow for 1/8 or 1/10 MOA?

maynard said:
Hence the reason for a ladder front sight. Also most fullbore rear sights are in 1/4 MOA clicks, while smallbore sights are 1/6 MOA (at least Anschutz sights are). IIRC the come up from 50 yards to 100 yards on my Anschutz is something like 40 or 44 clicks. Dan is also correct about smallbore sights not having a readable usefull scale, so it is a pain in the ass to count clicks. Also smallbore sights turn the opposite way than most fullbore sights :bangHead:.
Click to expand...

A ladder front is on the to-do list. The Rightsight is currently the front runner

due to it's features and inclusion of an adjustable aperture/iris. You also highlight my hesitation of using rimfire sights, simply because Euro-Commies made them.:p


An update: the picatinny rail is manufactured and installed. It still needs to undergoe a litte sculPting to get it just right, followed by a bead blast and hard-anodizing. I must say it turned out Pretty awesome. Also i may have sourced a temporary rear sight (and cheap/free): a PH5C. It needs an adapter plate made, but is otherwise a unique and interesting choice, and it's built like a tank. A 12mm front sight base is next, and will likely be adorned with a Parker hale glide sight, to be replaced by a Super Tiger Sight from a friend. If all goes well, the gun should be fully shoot able by early January. w00t!

And thanks for the help guys! It is much appreciated!

Also, I'm on my iPhone, therefore I can't post any pics until Thursday. But I will post some indeed!
 
So, here she is in all her glory. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves:

DSC01476.JPG

DSC01473.JPG

DSC01474.JPG


She's wearing a Falcon Menace 4-14x44 Metric scope with TPS rings, mounted onto a custom/homemade Picatinny rail, affixed with four 6-48 screws. Barrel is a Ron Smith, who also built the gun and rail. The groups are 10 rounds, and were shot at 100 yards, using Eley Tenex. Wind was around 5 KMH from the east. Rifle was shot using a front support and rear bag, off the bench:

DSC01481.JPG

DSC01482.JPG

DSC01485.JPG


Note that the holes not circled were from other groups. I also tried 5 bulk brands of ammo on the same target board. All shot 1.5 MOA or better, some around or below 1.25 MOA.
 
Now she just needs sights. I got PH5C from Ron, and intend on making an adapter for it to fit (without modification, for you worrisome milsurpers) on the Picatinny rail. Should be some fun for sure.
 
Great shooting. I see you are learning the wind can get you at 100 yards even with Tennex. The height of the group will tell you how good the ammo and rifle are working, the width of the group will tell you how well you are reading the wind.
 
Thank you! For these groups I was completely ignoring the wind. I was concentrating more on getting the rifle square, and keeping my technique as consistent as possible. The trigger is very heavy and very creepy, which made staying on target a trying ordeal. Also the thin and very rounded stock made it difficult to return the rifle to vertical every time. Once I deal with those two issues, modifying the trigger and building a better stock, i should be able to cut down on group size a little. Getting in more trigger time and shooting off some more ammo will also help. However, considering this is my first Sub-Minute rifle, ans this is the first time I've shot the rifle, I think I did pretty well. I am very proud of my creation :D

Now, onto other matters; In what kind of competition would this rifle be able to compete in? At 11 lbs. she's a tad heavy for a silhouette or any off-hand shoots, and I cannot seem to find any info about Smallbore benchrest competitions. What club in Calgary can I join that has competitions this rifle could compete in?

Cheers!
 
The standard method of mounting a Redfield or other US rear aperture sight was a base that was affixed using two screws onto the left side of the receiver. These are readily available.
I have an adapter base which enables a PH5C sight to be mounted on a Weaver scope base. It is a block which clamps onto the scope base, with provision on its left side for the PH5C. It does set the sight rather high. The front sight would need to be mounted very high as well.
 
tiriaq said:
The standard method of mounting a Redfield or other US rear aperture sight was a base that was affixed using two screws onto the left side of the receiver. These are readily available.
I have an adapter base which enables a PH5C sight to be mounted on a Weaver scope base. It is a block which clamps onto the scope base, with provision on its left side for the PH5C. It does set the sight rather high. The front sight would need to be mounted very high as well.
Click to expand...

You would be my hero if you could take some pictures of that base. The height does not concern me very much as I plan on centering the Irons with the scope, and as such, a tall front sight is a necessity. In fact, I do plan of getting an adjustable front sight, though my budget has run out for the time being.
 
Oh, and one measurement too, if you would be so kind. All I need is how far the mounting interface is offset from the rail. Center of the rail to face would be great, but anywhere will do as long as I can locate the datum on the Picatinny blueprint. Thank you very much!
 
Sure.

Please PM your email address, and I will send photos. Centerline to sight mounting flat is .570".
 
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Blastattack:

Ron sure makes great barrels, I am presently shooting 2 of his in .308, what a pleasure.

Looking at the rail, is it on backward?

I have similar set-up on an Anschutz, with rail, also a Walther KKJ-T, and I can put a TRAKKER right on without any other modifications.

The receivers did not have to be drilled and tapped because the retaining system is like the original dovetail sights on these European actions.
 
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