22-250 grouping problem

S

scrudeman

New member
EE Expired
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Location
Dixonville, AB
Hello Gents:

I'm looking for anyone who seems to be having the same problem as myself. Any input would be handy.

I recently picked up a used WBY. Vanguard in 22-250 1:14 twist for shooting wolves and coyotes.

Once I got some free time I dropped on my leupold VX-3 (4.5-14X50) into the talley rings the gun came with and headed out to my shooting spot to sight in my new combo.

I figured I would start with cheap bullets to get close to a sight in, so I took along a box of Federal 55gr soft points and proceeded to get my new combo zeroed.

I proceeded to zero the gun at 100yds and then shot a decent 1.25" 5 shot group with the above mentioned cheap ammunition.

I then proceeded to shoot some of my hand-loaded rounds through the gun to ensure they would be zeroed correctly, (as now I figured I would only require a couple shots from the hand-loads to adjust to 0).

My current recipe is as follows:

Nosler Custom Brass
Win Lg Rifle Primers
38.5gr Varget
50gr TTSX (barnes)

This load has a higher powder charge than is recommended as a max load by Barnes and Hogdon and is potentially dangerous!

The gun shot this combination absolutely horrible!! I have a difficult time placing 5 shots on a standard target (7"-8" group).

My bullets are seated out quite a good bit further than the factory stuff, but still clear of the lands and feed through the gun no problem.

The only thing I can come up with is that the barnes bullets dont seem to be getting enough rotation to stabilize in flight with the slow twisting barrel, but then why would the 55gr bullets have no problem grouping into an acceptable group?

I threw another scope on the gun tonight to see if that helps, I know the 50mm lens was awful close to the barrel and maybe that was affecting my grouping.

I am stumped either way..... I have never had a hand-load shoot so poorly and it was quite embarrasing that I could outshoot my hand-load grouping with the cheapest bullets you can buy from the factory.

Has anyone else run into this?

Cheers

Eric
 
Last edited:
You should try those Barnes TTSX bullets with a good jump to the lands. [.050" is recommended by Barnes] That may help.
Otherwise, it is a possibility that your Vanguard does not like the Barnes bullet.
Eagleye.
 
Thanks Eagle-eye!!

I had thought of seating the bullets in further, but wasnt sure if that would make it better or worse.

I will seat a few in a little further and give that a try!

Cheers

Eric
 
Nosler Custom Brass
Win Lg Rifle Primers
39gr Varget
50gr TTSX (barnes)
Click to expand...

I am curious as to where you found that load data, considering that it is using more Varget than the Barnes manual lists for the 45gr TSX, and a full three grains more Varget than listed for any 50gr bullet in either my Nosler or Sierra manuals. In fact I haven't found a 22-250 load using 39gr of Varget with a 50gr bullet in any of my manuals, or on the Hodgdons website.
 
stubblejumper said:
I am curious as to where you found that load data, considering that it is using more Varget than the Barnes manual lists for the 45gr TSX, and a full three grains more Varget than listed for any 50gr bullet in either my Nosler or Sierra manuals. In fact I haven't found a 22-250 load using 39gr of Varget with a 50gr bullet in any of my manuals, or on the Hodgdons website.
Click to expand...

Sorry that was my error, I used 38.5 gr of Varget. In the Lyman manual under 50gr bullets there was no Varget load data, but for the 53gr they recommended 38.0gr of Varget. I increased the grains to 38.5 and test fired to check for high pressure signs and there was none. I went this route because there was no load data in the Barnes manual for a 50gr bullet only 45 and 53. I understand that this load is on the "hot" side, but it was done very carefully.

Eric
 
stubblejumper said:
I am curious as to where you found that load data, considering that it is using more Varget than the Barnes manual lists for the 45gr TSX, and a full three grains more Varget than listed for any 50gr bullet in either my Nosler or Sierra manuals. In fact I haven't found a 22-250 load using 39gr of Varget with a 50gr bullet in any of my manuals, or on the Hodgdons website.
Click to expand...

Stub

You serious. You never have loaded over factory max in a manual? FS
 
I understand that this load is on the "hot" side, but it was done very carefully.
Click to expand...

It's your gun, your face,your eyes and your fingers, but starting out with more powder than listed in any manual is a good way to run into problems. Things might not let go right away, but metal fatigue over time, due to excess pressure, can lead to some nasty surprises. As well excessive pressure often causes accuracy issues, which you appear to be experiencing.
I would back off the powder charge at least three grains, and seat the bullets .050" off of the lands.
 
I don't hand load for my .22-250. I just checked into this because I was curious when I seen the topic.

I wouldn't worry about the scope bell being close to the barrel. I mount all my scopes as low as possible without the bolt interfering. Only input I can give to this topic, hope it helps.
 
Use either a heavier bullet, or change to blc2 powder or H322
vertical or horizontal stringing, and are all your handloads fireformed to that rifle?
Fireforming to your brass to this new gun would be my first order of business, then try uot your original recipie again :)
 
Stub

You serious. You never have loaded over factory max in a manual? FS
Click to expand...

I may exceed the maximum load listed by a very slight amount, after I have started with a reduced load and worked up to it, but I don't exceed the common maximum load by 7%, and I most certainly don't start out with a load that is 7% over the maximum load listed in several manuals. Starting loads are given for a reason, and I have found that with the monometal bullets like the TTSX, pressures can rise more suddenly than with cup and core bullets. As such, I am even more careful with these bullets.
 
Fassteel said:
Sman

Do you have some other powders near your bench for loading your new rifle? FS
Click to expand...

I have a few different flavours, I will try some different powders to see if that helps the grouping

Got Juice? said:
Use either a heavier bullet, or change to blc2 powder or H322
vertical or horizontal stringing, and are all your handloads fireformed to that rifle?
Fireforming to your brass to this new gun would be my first order of business, then try uot your original recipie again :)
Click to expand...

The Nosler brass was the first time through the gun. I will load up some fire-formed brass to see if that makes a difference.

stubblejumper said:
I may exceed the maximum load listed by a very slight amount, after I have started with a reduced load and worked up to it, but I don't exceed the common maximum load by 7%, and I most certainly don't start out with a load that is 7% over the maximum load listed in several manuals. Starting loads are given for a reason, and I have found that with the monometal bullets like the TTSX, pressures can rise more suddenly than with cup and core bullets. As such, I am even more careful with these bullets.
Click to expand...

I went off of the Lyman Data, which obviously is hotter. But they do also put the C.U.P. in the load data as well, which the other manuals I have do not. I appreciate the concern and the advice. In my mind with a recommended load of 39.5gr for a 45gr bullet and a 38gr load for a 53gr bullet 38.5 seemed to be a reasonable powder charge. As I stated earlier there is no signs of excessive pressure.
 
Scrudeman i would try some different bullets as well, my favotite powder in a 22-250 was H380 with a 55 gr bullet. I haven`t tried any of the new powders that have come out since i sold my 22-250. My 204 would do the same thing with factory Hornady ammo,3-4" groups handloads no problem. As far as going over book listed amounts of powder it all depends on when the book was printed, go buy an old manual and get a surprise. Always work up to max level in any rifle, books are a guide line only. There are a lot of differences in each rifle and load combo. A friend of mine has a 243 i put together for him that will max out at starting loads. It has a very tight bore, had to order a undersize bushing for the reamer. My favorite load in the 264 win mag isn`t even published any more. Hope you find a load that works, the 22-250 is a lot of fun.
 
I'd try switching bullets before I switched powders, I think that your load with that bullet was too hot, but prolly would be good with BTs(NOZZZLER)
 
scrudeman said:
Hello Gents:

I'm looking for anyone who seems to be having the same problem as myself. Any input would be handy.

I recently picked up a used WBY. Vanguard in 22-250 1:14 twist for shooting wolves and coyotes.

Once I got some free time I dropped on my leupold VX-3 (4.5-14X50) into the talley rings the gun came with and headed out to my shooting spot to sight in my new combo.

I figured I would start with cheap bullets to get close to a sight in, so I took along a box of Federal 55gr soft points and proceeded to get my new combo zeroed.

I proceeded to zero the gun at 100yds and then shot a decent 1.25" 5 shot group with the above mentioned cheap ammunition.

I then proceeded to shoot some of my hand-loaded rounds through the gun to ensure they would be zeroed correctly, (as now I figured I would only require a couple shots from the hand-loads to adjust to 0).

My current recipe is as follows:

Nosler Custom Brass
Win Lg Rifle Primers
38.5gr Varget
50gr TTSX (barnes)

The gun shot this combination absolutely horrible!! I have a difficult time placing 5 shots on a standard target (7"-8" group).

My bullets are seated out quite a good bit further than the factory stuff, but still clear of the lands and feed through the gun no problem.

The only thing I can come up with is that the barnes bullets dont seem to be getting enough rotation to stabilize in flight with the slow twisting barrel, but then why would the 55gr bullets have no problem grouping into an acceptable group?

I threw another scope on the gun tonight to see if that helps, I know the 50mm lens was awful close to the barrel and maybe that was affecting my grouping.

I am stumped either way..... I have never had a hand-load shoot so poorly and it was quite embarrasing that I could outshoot my hand-load grouping with the cheapest bullets you can buy from the factory.

Has anyone else run into this?

Cheers

Eric
Click to expand...

Eric, an accurate rifle will shoot any reasonable load fairly well, but a 7" group indicates a problem. Vanguards are generally pretty accurate, but an exception to the rule is not out of the question. Examine your fired brass to determine if there is an irregularity in your chamber, a pal of mine bought a .25/06 Vanguard with an unfinished chamber.

I had stability problems with a 1:14 twist .22-250 stabilizing 53 gr TSXs, the group was large and the bullet holes elongated. If those 50 gr TTSXs are unstable they will show yaw on the target, you might try a 45 gr TSX which seem to stabilize in slow twist barrels. Making slight adjustments to the load or seating depth will not cure a 7 minute error.

If the bell of your scope touches the top of the barrel, that is an undesirable situation, but how it will reflect on your group size I can't say. If there is enough room between the bell and the barrel to slip in a piece of paper, it is unlikely to be a problem. If the bell touched the barrel during the mounting procedure, and you then tightened up the rings, the internal adjustments might have been damaged and a check by Korth might be in order.
 
My current recipe is as follows:

Nosler Custom Brass
Win Lg Rifle Primers
38.5gr Varget
50gr TTSX (barnes)

This is a quote from the original post.
This was not a load worked up for this rifle but a "Current Recipe".
 
Both the Barnes and Berger copper bullets are longer than a typical lead/copper bullet. They require faster than normal twists to stabilize. Try a different bullet altogether rather than a lighter Barnes.
 
Honeydealer said:
Both the Barnes and Berger copper bullets are longer than a typical lead/copper bullet. They require faster than normal twists to stabilize. Try a different bullet altogether rather than a lighter Barnes.
Click to expand...
Yup if you look at the Barnes site the minimum twist rate recomended for the TTSX 50gr .224 bullet is 1 - 12" .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom