Is 30/30 a good caliber to hunt deer?

tactical lever said:
Sorry, but you just don't know your guns. I know that your figures for .275 Rigby are out to lunch. You are mixing up sectional density with ballistic coefficient. There isn't a .284 bullet made that has a sectional density of .350. The closest is a 195 grain which makes it .345, which was not available in Bell's day. The bullet he used was a 173 gr. which gives it an sd of .306, a far cry from .350.

Truth be known if I thought I needed maximum sd I would go to a 250 gr. .308 bullet which would be .376; far higher than what's available for .284. Sectional density being a concern, the 6.5x55 would have been a better cartridge based on bullets available at the time with a 165 for an sd of .338. Funny thing is that these number don't really mean that much. I would sooner take a heavy weight anything over the highest sd bullet of the bunch for truly dangerous game (like a .416 Rigby, or .458 Win).

As per your silly assertion that the 7x57 is equal to .280, not likely. You must have not read the original ballistics. The .280 drives a 170 gr. about 400 fps faster. I'm not talking about modern loadings in new rifles. Try to keep up! :rolleyes:

Maybe the opium and little boys talk is one for another forum?
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Ok I'll give that I was off on the .350 number since I was just going by memory. Still, sectional densities of .300 and over have been the magic mark for solid bullet performance since smokeless powder was in its infancy, which is why a 7 x 57 could brain elephants while the thutty-thutty never made the list of elephant guns. As an aside, Bell did also use the 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher.

As per your silly assertion that the 7x57 is equal to .280, not likely. You must have not read the original ballistics. The .280 drives a 170 gr. about 400 fps faster. I'm not talking about modern loadings in new rifles. Try to keep up! :rolleyes:
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Unless you're ready to take the tarp off the time machine, there is little point in considering anything other todays ballistics when hunting today. Which is why I would cheerfully hunt most anything with my old .270s or my daughters 7/08, while my 30-30s are mildly interesting toys to shoot cast bullets out of.

I would sooner take a heavy weight anything over the highest sd bullet of the bunch for truly dangerous game (like a .416 Rigby, or .458 Win).
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Questions for clarity. Are you saying that you would use the .416 and .458, or that you want something heavier? Also what are you considering dangerous game? Of those, which have you killed, and with what?
 
Dogleg said:
which is why a 7 x 57 could brain elephants while the thutty-thutty never made the list of elephant guns. As an aside, Bell did also use the 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher.
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I think it's safe to say that if Bell had been from Canada instead of Britans Comonwealth we would all be touting the great elephant killing .303B cartridge;) or even the 30-30:)
Remember the greatest Tiger killer cartridge of the day was at one time a .22HP in a Sav 99 :eek::D
 
RememberTheSomme said:
I don't think I said you're stupid or ignorant, but I will remind you that a .30/30 has minimum energy to deliver to a deer let alone looking at how many cord of wood you can cut on the way there. No one in their right mind fires a bullet at a deer with the intent of using it to cut trees to get to the target. A 3" Fir will cut the energy in half instanly, and deflect god knows where, proven in controlled tests with different calibers of various velocities fired through various wood shapes.
You seem a little confused in your last post,... why would I try to lure you into using a .30/30, and away from your .308? If you read my post correctly, it shouldn't be hard to tell which one I feel is superior in the task at hand which is hunting Whitetail in timber, it's the .308Winchester for God's sake!
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Did you do these tests? I shoot pretty much daily, and shoot a lot while I'm out in my back 40...If you would like as I said before I'll put up videos for you too see what a bullet will go through, and hold together until it hits the target...Why do I do these things? Cause I'm curious to see what different weights and bullet style will and won't do.

You'd be amazed how fast you can take "professional tests" and debunk them, a 3" fir tree won't deflect a bullet unless its a baby grain and blows up, If you hit the very edge of the tree it MIGHT deflect it some if it's a spitzer bullet...You will never know what will work and what won't until you try. Until then, like another member said, keep your armchair shooter opinion to yourself.

Also, I shot 20 150 grain core lokts, 20 180 federal blue box, 20 150 grain federal blue box, 20 180 core lokt psp's, and 20 winchester 150 powermax from my 308 to see which shot best and what kind of penatration each had. Did you?

Lets not bombard this follows thread and make him feel like a idiot anymore then everybody already has, it's rude, mean and unfair to him, savvy.
 
senior said:
I think it's safe to say that if Bell had been from Canada instead of Britans Comonwealth we would all be touting the great elephant killing .303B cartridge;) or even the 30-30:)
Remember the greatest Tiger killer cartridge of the day was at one time a .22HP in a Sav 99 :eek::D
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Bell was born in Scotland, did plenty of time in Canada during the Yukon gold rush and fought with the Canadian Mounted Rifles in the Boer War. I don't see why we can't claim him in some honorary capacity:) He was no stranger to the .303, and killed 200 elephants with it. In the end you will notice that he basically shot military cartridges that had cheap FMJ ammo available. Not a 30-30 in sight though.
 
To the o p,anyone who tells you a .30-30 won't fit the bill under the conditions you mention is full of chit.I have one in the safe and i wouldn't hesitate to use it out to 250 yds.It's a 1977 model 336 texan and it groups the leverevolution ammo in 1" three shot groups at 100 yds.I don't recall you asking what was better,but rather if the .30-30 was good for deer out to 100.The answer is yes and then some.
 
Dogleg said:
Ok I'll give that I was off on the .350 number since I was just going by memory. Still, sectional densities of .300 and over have been the magic mark for solid bullet performance since smokeless powder was in its infancy, which is why a 7 x 57 could brain elephants while the thutty-thutty never made the list of elephant guns. As an aside, Bell did also use the 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher.
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Plenty of good .308 bullets out there. Do you really think that we need to be hitting this magical number for a small light framed deer? Your sd numbers kind of go to crap as the bullet opens up, which is not a bad thing for killing.

Unless you're ready to take the tarp off the time machine, there is little point in considering anything other todays ballistics when hunting today. Which is why I would cheerfully hunt most anything with my old .270s or my daughters 7/08, while my 30-30s are mildly interesting toys to shoot cast bullets out of.
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The reason I used original ballistics is because that is what Bell used. At the time those were modern ballistics. My point was what was done with such mild loads. I still don't think the 7x57 is an elephant cartridge, but it worked for a professional hunter. (Nothing wrong with it either) I can only surmise that were he to pick up a 30-30; in his hands it would have probably been at least a dandy lion gun. Can't think of what the guy's name is, but at least one fairly well known guide uses one for grizzly back up.

Questions for clarity. Are you saying that you would use the .416 and .458, or that you want something heavier? Also what are you considering dangerous game? Of those, which have you killed, and with what?
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Yes, the .416 (Rigby most likely) would probably be my top choice, or a .425 Express, but a .458 would be good as well. When I say dangerous, I mean traditionally considered dangerous game, like the African big 5. Or brown bear, or even grizzly. Unfortunately I have not had the chance at any of these. Except for a beautiful grizzly which is not an option at this time.

I have always wanted to take a brown bear and would love to take it with my stainless guide gun and warm hand loads.

What is your favourite dg rifle; I know you have a few kickin' around and probably collecting too much dust?!
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tactical lever said:
Plenty of good .308 bullets out there. Do you really think that we need to be hitting this magical number for a small light framed deer? Your sd numbers kind of go to crap as the bullet opens up, which is not a bad thing for killing.



The reason I used original ballistics is because that is what Bell used. At the time those were modern ballistics. My point was what was done with such mild loads. I still don't think the 7x57 is an elephant cartridge, but it worked for a professional hunter. (Nothing wrong with it either) I can only surmise that were he to pick up a 30-30; in his hands it would have probably been at least a dandy lion gun. Can't think of what the guy's name is, but at least one fairly well known guide uses one for grizzly back up.



Yes, the .416 (Rigby most likely) would probably be my top choice, or a .425 Express, but a .458 would be good as well. When I say dangerous, I mean traditionally considered dangerous game, like the African big 5. Or brown bear, or even grizzly. Unfortunately I have not had the chance at any of these. Except for a beautiful grizzly which is not an option at this time.

I have always wanted to take a brown bear and would love to take it with my stainless guide gun and warm hand loads.

What is your favourite dg rifle; I know you have a few kickin' around and probably collecting too much dust?!
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About the only time I think about S.D. at all is with regard to solids, and solids only in regards to elephant. I've never seen a solid do anything that impressed me on buffalo. The reason I ask which species is there is obviously a considerable difference between a leopard and an elephant.

What do I use? Well I kick around with a couple .375s, a .416 Rigby and most recently a .458 Win. I've got the last one kicking 450 grain A-Frames out at 2350 fps now, so have put the plans of makeing it into a .458 Lott on an indefinite hold.

I've shot a couple elephant, 20 buffalo and one loney grizzly. I'll likely add to the buffalo next Aug.
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Ardent said:
Not for a kid in Ontario... (375), I know you're kidding mind you. I started on a .30-30, my first big game rifle, and besides my African stuff and a couple big ones that Ontario doesn't have my .30-30 would have taken every animal I've hunted cleanly. Including most of my African game too, honestly. Not saying it's the be all and end all, but it's a great little rifle with lethality above its numbers so to speak thanks to relatively heavy bullet weights available (170gr) at moderate velocities. We get overly caught up in numbers, me too, but the real world says a .30-30 carbine is a superb choice for what the OP wanted; woods rifle for deer-sized game at moderate range. I like strong guns and "Using enough gun", and for what the OP wants, the .30-30 is built for that and is enough gun.
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well said.

for deer, arguing what is the better gun at 100 yards is like arguing how many angels can dance on a pin head.

as to africa, didn't charles cottar use a 32 special?
 
Dogleg said:
tactical lever said:
About the only time I think about S.D. at all is with regard to solids, and solids only in regards to elephant. I've never seen a solid do anything that impressed me on buffalo. The reason I ask which species is there is obviously a considerable difference between a leopard and an elephant.

What do I use? Well I kick around with a couple .375s, a .416 Rigby and most recently a .458 Win. I've got the last one kicking 450 grain A-Frames out at 2350 fps now, so have put the plans of makeing it into a .458 Lott on an indefinite hold.

I've shot a couple elephant, 20 buffalo and one loney grizzly. I'll likely add to the buffalo next Aug.
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I would also like to add the .358 Norma and .375 H&H to my want list for some dangerous game. If I ever go for leopard I would probably use something smaller perhaps. Maybe a 30-30! Heard stories (not sure of the veracity) of guys fighting off leopards or even strangling them!? IIRC they aren't much bigger than our cougars.

BTW Dogleg, would you have the room for a large steamer trunk and maybe a couple extra long cases on your next adventure?

I believe URTDR! (unrecoverable thread derailment).
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Dogleg said:
There's room in the timeslot of my next trip if 1000 round per week feral culling, with trophy buffalo and even buffalo culling on the side is something that interests you.
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That is a very appealing idea. I would love to go; stellar company and lots of action is right up my alley. Unfortunately, the cost would surely prohibit me from joining you. Hence the steamer trunk. :(
 
The 30-30 was more popular when there was less open areas to hunt in. Nothing wrong with the 30-30 and it's a nice low recoiling round especially useful for women or kids like the .243 is. Personally I'd rather use a .308 carbine in case I step out of the bush, and am prevented with a longer shot.
 
Dogleg said:
There's room in the timeslot of my next trip if 1000 round per week feral culling, with trophy buffalo and even buffalo culling on the side is something that interests you.
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Sounds like Oz...? I'm chomping at the bit to go, but we won't make it til 2016-2017+ by the looks of it. I have a Leopard with my name on it and I'd love to go to Mozambique for Lion, and these may get in the way of the Oz dream for the time being. I'll be playing catch up to ya for decades to come. :redface:
 
.30-30 has been comdemned by the guns it is chambered in, like the .7.62x39.
I have a winchester 94(in .32 spec, but it's almost the same thing) and my wife has a savage 340 bolt action in .30-30. I have been playing with her .30-30 with 110 grain and 125 grain spitzers(box magazine) and it is amazingly accurate. I did some bedding work and am shooting neck sized brass loaded to max mag length. I got some 2 1/2-3" groups at 200 yards and I'm still working on loads. .30-30 has the power to easily take deer, if it is fired from a decent gun with decent sights(not buckhorns!)
 
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