Elcan Reticule Explanation

NavyShooter

NavyShooter

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
100   0   0
Location
XMU Local .303
Folks,

I was asked for a quick explanation of the Elcan Reticule. I figured I'd post this publicly, and folks can all learn from it. I'm open for correction to details here if I've missed anything.

Elcan%20Reticule%202.jpg


Elcan Reticule.

Picket Fence post...vertical aiming point. The tip of the reticule should be your point of Aim, and point of impact for your bullets.

The "green" area inside the picket fence post tip is the tritium element, normally only visible at night. NOTE that the Tip of the tritium element's green area is slightly below the tip of the black of the daylight visible reticule. This will result in you needing to hold about 1-2 MOA low if using the sight at night.

The horizontal stadia bars (lines coming across from the tip of the fence post) are designed as visual cues to level the scope and prevent canting. There is a measurement to them, and their spacing, which I *THINK* is 10 Mils (ie 10 meters at 1000 meters, or 1 meter at 100m) but I am not certain.

The "extra" stadia bar on the right side of the picket fence post is a range-finding tool. The distance between the two is 76 cm at 300m.

Here's how it works. The lower bar goes at the base of your target, and the upper bar will go at the top, and you can use it to determine a "rough" range to your target. Here's the reference table for what will fit between the bars at what range on a human-sized target:

100m Head
200m Torso (belt to neck)
300m Upper body (belt to top of head)
400m Knees to Neck
500m Knees to top of head


Elcan%20Reticule%201.jpg


I hope some of you find this a useful explanation...

NS
 
Last edited:
NavyShooter said:
The horizontal stadia bars (lines coming across from the tip of the fence post) are designed as visual cues to level the scope and prevent canting. There is a measurement to them, and their spacing, which I *THINK* is 10 Mils (ie 10 meters at 100 meters, or 1 meter at 100m) but I am not certain.
Click to expand...

Did you mean 10 metres at 1000 metres and 1 metre at 100m ?

Good post, though, useful info.
 
I'm a former grunt (over 14 years), and competitive shooter (closing in on 25 years) I've won my share of things, and I did a lot of it with a government issue Elcan on top of a C7 - so I think my opinion is worth something.

I gotta say I liked that reticle.

The next best thing about it is the glass. Nice wide field of view, and clear... even if it makes the whole rig a bit top heavy. Shoots good -- when it works. Which brings me to my last point.

The base of the elcan is one of the biggest POS things ever devised. I suggest to you that there is never such a thing as a "good" time for a weapon failure or a zero-shift. Elcans had a tendency to shift zeroes wildly or fail outright on any day of the week that ended in a "Y."

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. The Elcan is proof that the DND hated us and wanted us to be miserable.

I gotta say this for Elcan -- at least they didn't make the WORST scope out there. I saw a knock off Chinese made clone of the Elcan on a rifle last winter. Poor shooter couldn't even zero at 100m because scope ran out of windage. Short of using a file or shimming the base clamps, there was nothing to do with it except aim off about three feet. A bunch of us spent a few hours giggling amongst ourselves because we couldn't beleive that somebody actually managed to make the design WORSE than the original.

I understand that the Army folks are using newer mks of Elcan which have addressed some of the horrors I described and I hope they work for thier sake.

If anybody is spending money on optics to do any serious competition with - you can get a lot more value for the dollar than Elcan. I don't like shooting with ACOG as much as with Elcan - but they don't go South like Elcan every 2000 rds. Or just get a nice Leup CQB ior one of the Leup 1.5-4x tactical scopes (better reticle than teh CQB IMHO). Even the simple Leup low-power hunting scopes fit the bill for service rifle.

Gotta finish on a high note--- I sure did like the Elcan aiming post....
 
I have a question for those who know. How can you tell which generation of Elcan scope and/or base one has?

I understand the different generations offered improvements...springs or some such.

Does anyone have pics showing how to tell which setup one has?

And, what failed on the Elcan base? Was it from the rifles being bashed around and banged into things? Or a babied, never touched Elcan would lose zero for no apparent reason?



trout bum said:
I'm a former grunt (over 14 years), and competitive shooter (closing in on 25 years) I've won my share of things, and I did a lot of it with a government issue Elcan on top of a C7 - so I think my opinion is worth something.

I gotta say I liked that reticle.

The next best thing about it is the glass. Nice wide field of view, and clear... even if it makes the whole rig a bit top heavy. Shoots good -- when it works. Which brings me to my last point.

The base of the elcan is one of the biggest POS things ever devised. I suggest to you that there is never such a thing as a "good" time for a weapon failure or a zero-shift. Elcans had a tendency to shift zeroes wildly or fail outright on any day of the week that ended in a "Y."

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. The Elcan is proof that the DND hated us and wanted us to be miserable.

I gotta say this for Elcan -- at least they didn't make the WORST scope out there. I saw a knock off Chinese made clone of the Elcan on a rifle last winter. Poor shooter couldn't even zero at 100m because scope ran out of windage. Short of using a file or shimming the base clamps, there was nothing to do with it except aim off about three feet. A bunch of us spent a few hours giggling amongst ourselves because we couldn't beleive that somebody actually managed to make the design WORSE than the original.

I understand that the Army folks are using newer mks of Elcan which have addressed some of the horrors I described and I hope they work for thier sake.

If anybody is spending money on optics to do any serious competition with - you can get a lot more value for the dollar than Elcan. I don't like shooting with ACOG as much as with Elcan - but they don't go South like Elcan every 2000 rds. Or just get a nice Leup CQB ior one of the Leup 1.5-4x tactical scopes (better reticle than teh CQB IMHO). Even the simple Leup low-power hunting scopes fit the bill for service rifle.

Gotta finish on a high note--- I sure did like the Elcan aiming post....
Click to expand...
 
With original Elcans (in good repair, and not knocked around - range-Queen guns stored in hard cases and never kicked about...), the thread on elevation screw was problematic. Imagine a generous amount of play in a nut on a threaded bolt. Without even turning the nut, it could move up and down a bit... maybe not a problem in itself, except that you might zero at 200, then roll up to 500. Back down to 200. It could be different zero if it was pushed up against the thread at first, and down against the thread when you come back. Solution to that was tougher wave washer inside the guts of the thing (essentially a spring steel washer flexing up against the moveable base) - this "tighter spring" had effect of always ensuring that the "loose bolt" was in the top of the "wiggle room" it had. It was a temp fix, and you tried to always get it done well before CFSAC so you could re-zero and "regain confidence" in the damn thing - but not so much in advance that it would fail again before or during... And Army only approved mods after 2-3 years of whining and crying. And approved or not - odds were that unless you had a team armourer that knew his stuff, he didn't know what you were asking about... Most armourers in CF, even the ones supporting Small Arms Teams are glorified part-changers and they don't meddle with things unless they're actually broke...

I had a windage screw break inside an Elcan. That was freaky. And it did it to me in Bisley. Taught the British Army a few new swear words that day.

God help you if you actually abused the things. A big hit might crap it out to the tune of 32 clicks. (About 32 MOA...) I was out of the Service when our boys hit the ground in Afghanistan but I was terrified for them. I got a roll of film mailed to me from a buddy on the first go around and I took it to Costco and got the prints done to give a set to his mom -- kept a set of his pics for myself and saw a LOT of backup iron sights instead of Elcans.

We sometime used boot bands around the top of them snugged down around the forward assist to always provide downward tension -- a field expedient version of the solution I discussed above -- a good spring always providing upward tension...

Thought we had the bugs worked out, and I see Australian Army fellow a few years later with Elcan. Dude has a bootband. I don't know if they used it in any numbers, or if they still do -- but he didn' tlook happy.

I have a good friend in USMC I met at a match a long time ago when he was with USMC Shooting Team. They were running M16s with Elcans as a trial that year in the "Wilson Combat Matches," which are like our CFSAC. Earned myself a beer talking him through how to make the bloody things work, and after that talk they seemed to do OK with them. But I havn't seen an Elcan on a USMC rifle since then -- so maybe the Commandant of the Corps didn't dig the bootband thing!

Nice aiming post, though. Better than iron sights. Not as reliable.
 
cantom said:
I have a question for those who know. How can you tell which generation of Elcan scope and/or base one has?

I understand the different generations offered improvements...springs or some such.

Does anyone have pics showing how to tell which setup one has?

And, what failed on the Elcan base? Was it from the rifles being bashed around and banged into things? Or a babied, never touched Elcan would lose zero for no apparent reason?
Click to expand...

Have a look at this thread, although I am no expert, so I take no credit for or assume any liability for the accuracy of the information contained within the posts.

Sorry, can't help you with the pics.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=677313&highlight=elcan
 
The 4th Gen Elcans are a great improvement, the best part of the C7A2 upgrades.

Even those still packed with Afghan moon dust have tracked correctly and held zero.
 
sandermar said:
Have a look at this thread, although I am no expert, so I take no credit for or assume any liability for the accuracy of the information contained within the posts.

Sorry, can't help you with the pics.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=677313&highlight=elcan
Click to expand...

Thanks Sandermar.

Does anyone know if that coil spring between the 2 halves is available anywhere?
 
The simplest solution is a complete replacement of the base.

A machinist will not have the parts necessary to make the other changes that are incorporated either (new elevation drum, press fit, as opposed to screwed on)

NS
 
Not a "machinist" per se. Just a competent person with the correct tools. There's some fiddly bits that will go AWL or break if you don't pay attention and/or have a clue. Note to Army guys: Probably (well - almost certainly, actually) unauthorized if you frig with it yourself - and like I said earlier - most of your armourers are probably unfamiliar and would want/need to refer to the documentation. There's probably something buried in an obscure section of the CFAO's that dictate when/how/who and why springs can be replaced, reversed or bent. And normal teflon tape doesn't work, either. It would need to be manufactured in Quebec and have a NATO stock number.

etc.

If I was going to spend the coin on an Elcan, I have what's required to tidy it up in a small box under my loading bench.

But since I'm NOT in the Army... I can think of other ways to spend that kind of money that don't cause ulcers like Elcans do. I hope they're better now, but I suspect not.

Nice reticle, though.
 
Last time I ordered the base was $400 while a complete optic was $900.

I had my personal Elcan worked over by an old school weapons tech who replaced all the internals with bronze. Looking back I would have been just as well off with a new base.

In 2009 the LFWA Reserve team had at least 2 dozen optics failures at CFSAC
In 2010 the only issues were with C7A1s with old optics.
In 2010 15 out of 16 were running A2s and zero failures, even the A1 held together after a little gunner lovin.
 
My 4th Gen Elcan base failed this summer at Connaught. In this case it was the windage screw threads stripped off from nothing other than range use. I guess the system isn't designed to make wind adjustments on a regular basis.

Once I get a chance to re-zero, I'll be practicing Kentucky Windage with the Elcan from here on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdRLfO9CU2U
 
Quiet said:
My 4th Gen Elcan base failed this summer at Connaught. In this case it was the windage screw threads stripped off from nothing other than range use. I guess the system isn't designed to make wind adjustments on a regular basis.

Once I get a chance to re-zero, I'll be practicing Kentucky Windage with the Elcan from here on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdRLfO9CU2U
Click to expand...

The secret is to only dial base wind and not try to tune in radio tokyo.

I would caution against running away from dialing wind as straight Kentucky windage sucks with moving targets.
 
:agree:
Gunnerlove said:
The secret is to only dial base wind and not try to tune in radio tokyo.

I would caution against running away from dialing wind as straight Kentucky windage sucks with moving targets.
Click to expand...

Beauty of Elcan reticle in CFSAC/NSCC is the pointer is so darn wonderful, and fig11 and fig 12 targets present you with so many little "things" to aim off a bit. left side of the chin, cheekbone, earlobe, whatever... Gunnerlove is right on the money - dial in the base wind, and aim off a bit extra if it pics up. If you have time during a match, you can just wait until wind conditions match up with your last bullseye. Save the aiming off for snaps and rapids.

Movers -- generally a bit of wind here or there is the least of your problems. You can dial in a baseline as gunnerlove suggests - but the last time I can remeber, movers at 200m??? Bisley runs movers at 100m... It would need to be a pretty serious wind to matter anywhere near as much as your lead.

And my own paranoid behaviour would be to fiddle as little as possible to forestall the inevitable collapse of the sight.
 
tiriaq said:
NSCC movers at 300-200-100-50m.
Click to expand...

Wow. Glad they added some more movers. Sorts the men from the boys. Which targetry for them -- fig11s? Or those funny running dudes from the Kipper Army?

I got this thing about (service rifle and pistol) movers at closer ranges -- I would rather fire a GOOD shot with a bad sight setting (for wind) than do it the other way around. Heck - with FAST movers I'm even OK with firing a BAD shot if I can pull it off (pun intended) at the RIGHT TIME.

300m might strain THAT theory in the wind a bit... I'd still fall back on Gunnerlove's concept of dialing in the "baseline" wind. But it would have to be a pretty significant wind to muck up my scores any more than my lack of practice shooting at movers...
 
Mentioning Bisley reminds me of the movers and advanced movers.

The Elcan lacks horizontal graduations which ment that I was aiming by guess for both slow and fast exposures (Both off target).
At 100m wind is only an issue if it is grabbing your sling.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom