Blackhawk Serpa for events?

Wilson Tactical Training - Reviews: the Blackhawk Serpa Holster

By Jeremy Wilson, Wilson Tactical Training, LLC
<http://www.wilsontacticaltraining.com/?p=326>
Blackhawk Serpa Holster

by admin on Feb.21, 2011, under Reviews

Due to several unintentional discharges associated with the Blackhawk Serpa holster, I decided to test and evaluate the holster system. This test was conducted using the blackhawk Serpa level II holster system. This test involved introducing shooters of varying skill levels to various shooting and tactical exercises.

When you use this holster on a static range it seems like it is good to go. Over the past year I have personally seen three separate individuals have an unintentional discharge with this holster. I have heard of twelve others having unintentional discharges during courses of fire. One story I heard about involved an off duty police officer who was working a gig in WA State. He was carrying the Glock 22 in a Serpa holster. This officer had recently purchased the Serpa holster, so he wanted to develop more muscle memory with the holster. He was practicing his draw in the back room at a grocery store when he shot himself in the leg. These are just the cases I have heard from other instructors in WA State. I am sure there are many more around the world.

I understand that the majority of the time the unintentional discharge was caused by operator negligence, which is why I conducted this test. Since I am seeing this holster gain popularity and I keep experiencing horror stories associated with it, I decided to give the holster the benefit of the doubt and analyze it further. My goal was to see if this was a poor design, or if these issues were all casued by operator error.

The Serpa holster requires the user to extend the index finger to the same general location one would index along the frame of the gun. My first thought was this is where we want the index finger if we are not intending to shoot. The user must then press a button, which is located in the same general area as the trigger group and under spring tension, to release the pistol. This button relies on spring tension to disengage the internal retention system and return the internal retention system. Again, on a static range this holster seems like a good design. Under the tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving conditions of a force on force encounter this holster is a disaster.

The average shooter operates at about 50% to 60% of their normal functioning abilities when they are under stress. While this number is not a scientific fact, in my opinion it is a very generous estimate, based on my experience. If you disagree with it, I think we can all agree that no matter what your skill level is you will not operate at 100% during the tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving deadly force encounter. This means that pressing a small button in the same general area as the trigger can result in the trigger finger prematurely engaging the trigger. This is due to the continuation of the extension of the trigger finger that is required to disengage the retention system, and the fact that it takes a small amount of force to press the button to release the pistol. Lets put it in motion, you are placed in a tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving encounter with a really bad guy. You want to defend yourself with your firearm, but now due to the normal human response to this incident, you are experiencing loss of motor nerve function and only operating at a percentage of your best. You are now required to press a small button, which is under spring tension and requires a small amount of force to press in order to release your pistol. Now you are trying to press the button, pull the pistol out of the holster, and orient the muzzle toward the bad guy in one fluid motion. This results in the trigger finger entering the trigger guard and prematurely making contact with the trigger, which could result in an unintentional discharge. As the finger presses the button to release the pistol, the natural response is to follow through with the action and continue pressing the button as you draw the pistol from the holster. As the pistol comes out of the holster the ideal scenario is that the finger will contact the frame. My experience is that it does on the static range. For the reasons explained here in, when the shooter is placed under the tense uncertain and rapidly evolving force on force encounter it is another story. As a result of my test, I do not believe it is even possible for one to prevent this from occurring under the tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving encounter. I will explain, under the tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving deadly force encounter, one is placed under tremendous stress. The muscle group does not have the ability, or time, to relax after the shooter grips the pistol, applies force to press and release the gun from the holster. This results in the trigger finger prematurely making contact with the trigger even before your muzzle is oriented to the threat.

This test was conducted by placing individuals in force on force encounters armed with simunitions gear. Keep in mind that there is overwhelming evidence that this holster proves to be disasterous during any type of dynamic training where the shooter is placed under stress and asked to draw and shoot. The reports I have heard from other instructors is unintentional discharges during stress induced compressed times, moving drawing and shooting, and drawing to shoot from unusual positions.

Conclusion:

As an instructor, a shooter with 30 years of experience, and a person who has twelve years of market testing and evaluation experience, I do not recommend the Blackhawk Serpa Holster to anyone. In my opinion, this holster creates a range safety issue due to having to use force to press a button, which falls in close proximity to the trigger group; and the space between the trigger group and the index point not being sufficient to prevent the shooter from prematurely engaging the trigger. As a result of my experience with the Serpa holster, and this test, the Serpa holster is now banned from my classes. The Serpa holster is becoming such a problem that other training companies are starting to ban the use of it as well.

Thank you for taking your time to read this test. Be safe!

Jeremy Wilson, Wilson Tactical Training, LLC



Wilson Tactical Training | All Rights Reserved 2010-2011
<http://www.wilsontacticaltraining.com/?p=326>
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It's funny, reading through that he keeps mentioning other instructors reporting incidents but he never actually says he had any in his "test"
Also I wonder if you put a mix of holsters through the same test, what would be the result? Sounds like he is describing a lot of premature firing which can occur anytime you are under stress and has nothing to do with the holster. I've seen many many premature shots in IPSC from almost any type of holster, I've seen some shoot an ND awfully close to their foot and I've even seen one guy put a hole in his leg and none of that happened with a Serpa. I'm not a huge fan of the Serpa but I'm wondering if it's not just taking a lot of criticism that could be better targeted at the shooter. It seems easy to point the finger (figuratively speaking) at the holster because of the mechanism and blame that for the ND's instead of the shooter.
 
PH Racing said:
It's funny, reading through that he keeps mentioning other instructors reporting incidents but he never actually says he had any in his "test"
Also I wonder if you put a mix of holsters through the same test, what would be the result? Sounds like he is describing a lot of premature firing which can occur anytime you are under stress and has nothing to do with the holster. I've seen many many premature shots in IPSC from almost any type of holster, I've seen some shoot an ND awfully close to their foot and I've even seen one guy put a hole in his leg and none of that happened with a Serpa. I'm not a huge fan of the Serpa but I'm wondering if it's not just taking a lot of criticism that could be better targeted at the shooter. It seems easy to point the finger (figuratively speaking) at the holster because of the mechanism and blame that for the ND's instead of the shooter.
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Well Gunsite won't let you on their ranges with the Serpa on your hip to name just one. Gunsite had at least four AD's with the holster before they banned it or so one of their Instructors claimed on the M&P forum IIRC.

Just as easy to claim shooter error and ignore the shortfalls of the holster, too.

Take Care

Bob
 
no other holster (well ok one) requires you to use your trigger finger to release the gun the way the Serpa does. It is that action, that sets you up for failure. So no, I doubt you'll see similar issues with other holsters Pat.
 
But that's what I am saying. I have seen similar issues with other holsters. I'm not talking about "I heard" "rumor has it" or "supposedly". I'm saying I have seen a number of AD's with other holsters that don't use this mechanism. Everybody has a tale about this holster and I have yet to hear someone come right out and say, yes, I witnessed or I had an AD because of this holster. Even that Tex guy that had the video of him shooting himself in the leg came out and said it wasn't the holsters fault. In the sue first and ask questions late society of the US, if there were that many problems how has nobody sued Blackhawk if this is the case?
I think it's a bad design because of other issues they have had with the mechanism locking after dirt gets in it, but I don't think it should be blamed for shooters who can't keep their finger off the trigger, at least until there is better evidence than Internet rumor, forum experts and conjecture.
 
I'd say the overwhelming evidence from some of the top shooters in the US training industry, major private facilities and the number of people that have shot themselves or come close to it, with this specific holster, makes for a pretty good argument that it is a failure inducing design. This holster requires you to put your finger in an area that upon the draw is almost right on top of the trigger. Put in stress, exhaustion, or just stupidity and you end up like Tex did. His saying it wasn't the holsters fault is like a drunk driver saying it wasn't the booze that made him crash the car.
 
And I'll buy that if someone can post some either links or direct quotes from those that have seen this first hand. Its always "I heard" kind of stories, and even the test stated above didn't come out and say they had any failures. And the tex thing is more like they are trying to blame the car for the drunk driver...
The design puts your finger high on the frame, not over the trigger. That's even stated in the test above, if you simple drag your finger up the holster you either end up in the frame at the lowest point or on the slide. The button, where you press on it, is actually quite high.
 
I notice they fail to mention that Sig uses the same system on their holster and I also notice that having quite a few Serpa's that each one is a bit different due to the gun design. Yet they don't mention which version they tested. I tried to catch the trigger of my glock and M&P on the lip of mine, i had to turn the gun 45° to the holster to get that to happen and the holster had to be off my body to get that angle.
 
it doesn't leave your finger on the frame, if it did it wouldn't be the number one holster for AD's in the world. Watch the Gomez video on why it does what it does. It also wouldn't be being banned from range after range, by instructor after instructor, if it wasn't a problem. Have I seen people have AD's with this holster? yup, twice with live rounds on an outdoor range and 3 times with Sims during FOF. That pretty much ended my interest in using the holster anymore. which then meant I had a few more holsters to add to the "drawer".
 
PH Racing said:
And I'll buy that if someone can post some either links or direct quotes from those that have seen this first hand. Its always "I heard" kind of stories, and even the test stated above didn't come out and say they had any failures. And the tex thing is more like they are trying to blame the car for the drunk driver...
The design puts your finger high on the frame, not over the trigger. That's even stated in the test above, if you simple drag your finger up the holster you either end up in the frame at the lowest point or on the slide. The button, where you press on it, is actually quite high.
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You are in denial...so be it. The evidence against the Serpa is well beyond the "I heard stage". I don't have to stick my tongue on a steel fence post in the winter to know I am going to get stuck. IIRC I was about six when I saw a friend do it. Rumor, conjecture, well try it and see....

Take Care

Bob
 
Slavex said:
it doesn't leave your finger on the frame, if it did it wouldn't be the number one holster for AD's in the world. Watch the Gomez video on why it does what it does. It also wouldn't be being banned from range after range, by instructor after instructor, if it wasn't a problem. Have I seen people have AD's with this holster? yup, twice with live rounds on an outdoor range and 3 times with Sims during FOF. That pretty much ended my interest in using the holster anymore. which then meant I had a few more holsters to add to the "drawer".
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See, that's what I was looking for. But this is typical, nobody comes out and says "yes I saw it happen" its always second hand, third hand or Internet crap.
It took you three posts to say you don't use them because you have seen issues. Out of curiosity why didn't you post that in the first place?
 
Canuck44 said:
You are in denial...so be it. The evidence against the Serpa is well beyond the "I heard stage". I don't have to stick my tongue on a steel fence post in the winter to know I am going to get stuck. IIRC I was about six when I saw a friend do it. Rumor, conjecture, well try it and see....

Take Care

Bob
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I'm not in denial Bob, really I'm not. But I haven't seen and AD's with this holster but I have seen many with other ones. I just want someone to say that they have actually seen this and not "I heard it on the Internet"
 
never bought one casue it seemed stupid, but tried one out with a glock at shot and more often than not i was moving my finger out of the trigger guard after the pistol cleared the holster. bad sign since that was me keeping my finger straight after engaging the button

also seen way to many pictures and video of them having to be cut apart after being used in a training class because some dirt wedged in the button
 
Colin said:
I notice they fail to mention that Sig uses the same system on their holster
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actually the sig itac system is different, it has the lever well exposed, part of the failing with the blackhawk holster in my opinion is they put a rib around the button and make you press fairly hard to get enough finger into it unless your right on the button.... plus the sig activates higher as seen in the pictures below, the blackhawk appears to be countersunk.

blackhawk with rib around button
181145IMG1_L.1.jpeg


sig with LESS rib
iTac-SIG250F-detail.jpg
 
I use a Serpa holster, Norinco crap guns, Lee presses and clean stuff with WD-40. My #### has fallen off so many times I have a string attached to it so I don't lose it.

tinkerbell, take a look at a variety of different Serpas, the "rib" effect varies greatly, personally I like the one for my M&P the best becauses of the ribs that form a groove.
 
Colin said:
I use a Serpa holster, Norinco crap guns, Lee presses and clean stuff with WD-40. My #### has fallen off so many times I have a string attached to it so I don't lose it.

tinkerbell, take a look at a variety of different Serpas, the "rib" effect varies greatly, personally I like the one for my M&P the best becauses of the ribs that form a groove.
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Be honest Colin how many times have you given yourself a wedgy with the Serpa. That I have seen more than one.

For playing the games there are far better holsters out there than the Serpa without the tab that are faster to draw from and for most, much safer.

Personally I don't give a rats behind if somebody on his own puts a bullet in his leg using one just not on my range or in my sport. The ramifications go beyond a sore leg and I suspect this is the reason why so many instructors and ranges have banned the Serpa.

Take Care

Bob
 
TinkerBell said:
actually the sig itac system is different...[/img]
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Thanks Tink.

As I type this, I have an ITAC 1911 Holster and a Blackhawk Serpa Holster on my desk and a Colt MK IV Series 80 5".

When the pistol comes out of the Serpa, my activating (trigger) finger is on the slide stop pin.

When the pistol comes out of the ITAC, my activating (trigger) finger is on the slide, under the ejection port.

ITAC comes out of the holster with your trigger finger higher.

Just wanted to add this piece of information; you all may now resume your argument. :D
 
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