Is .410 enough to take down a large animal
- Thread starter kimagination92
- Start date
This sums it up as long one understands sarcasm. If you are going to make a comparison of a .410 slug to any other bullet, it is closest to a .22cal. The .410 slug is 1/5 of an ounce= 80grains lead traveling at 1200 feet per second. A .22cal is 55 grains at 1400 feet per second. This is the closest bullet in comparison. Is a .22cal good for big game or defense?
I'm fairly new as well but my protector of choice for bear or anything else I run into is the good old 12 gage with 000 buck then slug and so on staggered like that. Why play with what if's when it comes to your life or someone else's out in the bush or at home.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
For a 410 to kill a bear will require perfect placement on the shot, at close range.
Now perfect placement is something every hunter strives for, or should, but doing so under the stress of an attack, is unlikely to happen. Better use something of at least the power of the aforementioned 30-30. Learn bear anatomy, and keep a cool head.
Shooting a bear in the ass for example could get you killed in a hurry.
The 410 makes nice big holes, but has neither the energy, or velocity to kill well.
Bears of all kinds have incredible layers of fat on their bodies, I suspect the 410 would not get past the fat layer leaving you with a pissed off bear.
Now perfect placement is something every hunter strives for, or should, but doing so under the stress of an attack, is unlikely to happen. Better use something of at least the power of the aforementioned 30-30. Learn bear anatomy, and keep a cool head.
Shooting a bear in the ass for example could get you killed in a hurry.
The 410 makes nice big holes, but has neither the energy, or velocity to kill well.
Bears of all kinds have incredible layers of fat on their bodies, I suspect the 410 would not get past the fat layer leaving you with a pissed off bear.
To sum up:
410 is good for death stars, moose on snowshoes and texas heart shots on non adrenalined bears.
Only a super lotto winner would try it with a single shot 410, unless it has a 28" barrel, also, consider using a 410 slug/behind the ear combo as about your only chance.
I learn so much reading these threads.
By the way, the 410 is the worst choice, just after the cap and pellet guns.
Next thread; well then, how bout a .22 short for bear defense?
410 is good for death stars, moose on snowshoes and texas heart shots on non adrenalined bears.
Only a super lotto winner would try it with a single shot 410, unless it has a 28" barrel, also, consider using a 410 slug/behind the ear combo as about your only chance.
I learn so much reading these threads.
By the way, the 410 is the worst choice, just after the cap and pellet guns.
Next thread; well then, how bout a .22 short for bear defense?
Takujualuk
CGN Regular
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
The Federal 410 1/4 oz slug is better than you'd think. I wouldn't hesitate to take on a caribou with this load. Penetration is about 60% of a 12 Gauge 1 and 1/4 oz slug. I haven't found any 1/4 oz Brenneke's but they might even be better.
On bear.... no way reliable enough as the 110 grain soft slug can fragment badly on bone and doesn't give much of a wound channel for instant kills. The buckshot would seem to be better as the 5, 00 loads have a pretty impressive total weight but they penetrate even worse than the slug on a hard target.
By the way the fairly sedate (for a rifle)44 magnum in the above test out-penetrated all the shotgun ammo, even the 22 Hornet came close. Rifle a better choice for defense than a shotgun IMO. I use a 450 Marlin as my out-fishing gun.
On bear.... no way reliable enough as the 110 grain soft slug can fragment badly on bone and doesn't give much of a wound channel for instant kills. The buckshot would seem to be better as the 5, 00 loads have a pretty impressive total weight but they penetrate even worse than the slug on a hard target.
By the way the fairly sedate (for a rifle)44 magnum in the above test out-penetrated all the shotgun ammo, even the 22 Hornet came close. Rifle a better choice for defense than a shotgun IMO. I use a 450 Marlin as my out-fishing gun.
The Federal 410 1/4 oz slug is better than you'd think. I wouldn't hesitate to take on a caribou with this load. Penetration is about 60% of a 12 Gauge 1 and 1/4 oz slug. I haven't found any 1/4 oz Brenneke's but they might even be better.
On bear.... no way reliable enough as the 110 grain soft slug can fragment badly on bone and doesn't give much of a wound channel for instant kills. The buckshot would seem to be better as the 5, 00 loads have a pretty impressive total weight but they penetrate even worse than the slug on a hard target.
By the way the fairly sedate (for a rifle)44 magnum in the above test out-penetrated all the shotgun ammo, even the 22 Hornet came close. Rifle a better choice for defense than a shotgun IMO. I use a 450 Marlin as my out-fishing gun.
The point about the soft slugs is important. Fosters are not great for penetration. If you can get Brenneke or Dixie, they are better. Challenger ammo is made in Canada and they are pretty hard. I would not want to try a 4/10 on a bear ever. I pack a 20 gage in the bush sometimes and keep it in my boat, because it is light and it's all I had for years. A 20 gage with foster slug is no match for a bear's skull. A 7/8 challenger at 1610 fps at the muzzle is weak, but better. I would use a 22lr over 20 gage before a 22lr over 4/10.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
There is a pretty good aricle on the web aptly entitled: "410 slug comical or capable."
It also verifies Hungsolo's observation on 000 buckshot.
When it comes to Brenneke slugs available in the sub-gauges, the only vendor I know of with the willingness to bring them in on special order, was Accuracy Plus in Ontario. The minimum order is one full flat of these shotgun slugs. AFAIK, they only keep in regular stock 12 gauge 2 3/4inch Brennekes. Which also move very quickly from stockroom, to shelf, to purchaser.
Other than TSE's ongoing efforts (Thank You!) if anyone knows a source of sub-gauge Brennekes, please feel free to share them right here on this thread. This is pretty much appropriate for this subject I believe. Besides the 410 needing lots of help, additionally there are many 20 and 16 gauge shotguns that could benefit from these German slugs.
Cheers......
It also verifies Hungsolo's observation on 000 buckshot.
When it comes to Brenneke slugs available in the sub-gauges, the only vendor I know of with the willingness to bring them in on special order, was Accuracy Plus in Ontario. The minimum order is one full flat of these shotgun slugs. AFAIK, they only keep in regular stock 12 gauge 2 3/4inch Brennekes. Which also move very quickly from stockroom, to shelf, to purchaser.
Other than TSE's ongoing efforts (Thank You!) if anyone knows a source of sub-gauge Brennekes, please feel free to share them right here on this thread. This is pretty much appropriate for this subject I believe. Besides the 410 needing lots of help, additionally there are many 20 and 16 gauge shotguns that could benefit from these German slugs.
Cheers......
If legal a .410 3" birdshot has more ft. lbs than a .44 magnum at the muzzle for home defense.As the shot stays in the perp and won't go through three walls and kill a friendly.A slug would be like a 210gr .41 mag. Accuracy would be a main concern.Better than a pocket knife.........Harold
Very good point to ponder. All you need to do, is to see a grizz in real life in the fight mode. (I have) When you do, you come to the instant realization that even with the "perfect bear gun", you are in real deep shoopa if you become the intended target.
.410..... not for me. Situational awareness is your best friend in bear territory. Every bear encounter I've had, not once did I ever have a gun. It was awareness that kept me out of trouble.
If anyone is that worried about bears, stay away from where they live.
Someone mentioned wolves in this thread. Last year my brother was gold panning far enough into the bush, that he had to camp. On his way back, him and his woman were stalked by a pack of wolves. He had with him a Savage 12 guage pump, but only 9 rounds with him. He spotted two of them and fired a shot. That did chase them off.
That incident un-nerved him enough, that he now wants something else in semi auto. He questions the laws on having to be "pinned to five" in center fire when it comes to a pack of wolves.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Mkrainc, you did say they fled after one shot........so what's the real issue here friend?
Although this situation must have been a bit nerve racking, in retrospect his shotgun was sufficient.
Perhaps next time he'll bring more than 9 rounds, to get a warm & fuzzy feeling maybe.
I guess he chose a shotgun over a magnum handgun so he can hunt with it as well?
Although this situation must have been a bit nerve racking, in retrospect his shotgun was sufficient.
Perhaps next time he'll bring more than 9 rounds, to get a warm & fuzzy feeling maybe.
I guess he chose a shotgun over a magnum handgun so he can hunt with it as well?
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Shotgun slugs tend to be thimble like, are usually made from pure lead or a soft alloy, and as a result penetrate poorly compared to rifle bullets of equal caliber, and weight when the impact velocity is similar. When I carry a shotgun, not only would I never consider anything smaller than a 12 gauge, neither do I want to use foster slugs when I could get Brennekes or Challengers. The only reasons to carry a shotgun over a rifle is:
A) you can't afford a rifle,
B) you wish to carry less lethal in addition to lethal ammunition,
C) you are in a populated area where the use of a powerful rifle would pose a hazard to others,
D) you are prevented by law from packing a rifle, or its company policy to carry a shotgun rather than a rifle if you are an employee authorized to be armed.
This whole idea of considering minimal cartridges whether rifle or shotguns has frankly never made much sense to me. With respect to big game, 12 ga should be the minimum requirement and in rifles I prefer 6.5 at the low end, although I fully understand that 6mm and quarter bores are popular in some quarters. Around here .223s and .22-250 are seen a frequently as anything bigger, even when moose are the target.
On the subject of bear defense, a bear that cannot touch you cannot hurt you, thus the point of firing is to stop his forward progression. One does not do this by shooting into the chest cavity, and this is where hunters get into trouble with these guys, they choose the same aiming point in a close range defensive situation, as they would to kill a trophy at 200 yards. In order to survive a dangerous bear encounter that requires shooting, your choices are: to destroy the brain, sever the spine, or break a large weight supporting bone like the hip. Now, does this sound possible with a .410 slug?
A) you can't afford a rifle,
B) you wish to carry less lethal in addition to lethal ammunition,
C) you are in a populated area where the use of a powerful rifle would pose a hazard to others,
D) you are prevented by law from packing a rifle, or its company policy to carry a shotgun rather than a rifle if you are an employee authorized to be armed.
This whole idea of considering minimal cartridges whether rifle or shotguns has frankly never made much sense to me. With respect to big game, 12 ga should be the minimum requirement and in rifles I prefer 6.5 at the low end, although I fully understand that 6mm and quarter bores are popular in some quarters. Around here .223s and .22-250 are seen a frequently as anything bigger, even when moose are the target.
On the subject of bear defense, a bear that cannot touch you cannot hurt you, thus the point of firing is to stop his forward progression. One does not do this by shooting into the chest cavity, and this is where hunters get into trouble with these guys, they choose the same aiming point in a close range defensive situation, as they would to kill a trophy at 200 yards. In order to survive a dangerous bear encounter that requires shooting, your choices are: to destroy the brain, sever the spine, or break a large weight supporting bone like the hip. Now, does this sound possible with a .410 slug?
http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/slugtest3/index.htm I shoot the 3" Silver bear slugs from Russia out of a Savage .22/.410 combo gun and can hit bean can sized targets every shot out to 40 yards.They easily penetrated a car hood both sides at a dump at 50 yards.Not ideal for bear but enough to change his mind about diet.My comparison to the .410 mag was bullet diameter not performance.The Russian stuff has very hard lead.Also have some with buckshot..........Harold
Takujualuk
CGN Regular
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/slugtest/index.htm
Pretty poor penetration IMO. Even the Brenneke is marginal...the Federal low and the Win and Rem extremely poor.
Pretty poor penetration IMO. Even the Brenneke is marginal...the Federal low and the Win and Rem extremely poor.
