CZ 452 Varmint 17HMR or .223?

Musky Hunter

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I have always wanted a 17HMR. I am looking at a cz 452 varmint for 200-300 small game rifle. I just got a savage 22lr HB and it's been great. Only thing i hate is the crappy stock.

For longer distances should i go 17 HMR or .223? I don't reload so the cheaper 17HMR is nice.

How are the triggers on the CZ's?

Any factory rifle out there that shoots the winchester white box .223 MOA?
 
452 triggers can benefit from a little work. There are kits, or you can do it yourself. 453 is nice because it has a more adjustable trigger and single set trigger to give you a very light trigger pull. I have one in the varmint 17hmr and its a great gun. 17hmr ammo is around $13 a box of 50 and you can get hornady steel match 223 for around $26 a box. The 223 will pack more wollump and have greater range and versitility.

My ruger M77 Mark II shoot winchester white box 45 grain alright. Good enough for coyotes at any reasonable range. Its a 1 in 12 twist. The white box ammo isn't target grade, and it shows, but its not crap either.
 
Well a 223 gives you a lot more range as Grizzlypeg pointed out, if you reload a whole lot more options become available. The guys i know that have a 17hmr use it a lot less than the 22lr just because of the cost. In my opinion the two options you are looking at have totally different uses. If you don`t plan on shooting more than a couple hundred rounds at less than 200 yards then the 17hmr will be a good choice. As for a CZ it is never a bad choice, rimfire or centerfire.
 
I have always wanted a 17HMR. I am looking at a cz 452 varmint for 200-300 small game rifle. I just got a savage 22lr HB and it's been great. Only thing i hate is the crappy stock.

For longer distances should i go 17 HMR or .223? I don't reload so the cheaper 17HMR is nice.

How are the triggers on the CZ's?

Any factory rifle out there that shoots the winchester white box .223 MOA?

First of all, how do you define "small game"??? Rabbits, hares, coons, foxes, coyotes???
Buy an HMR... you will love it. As far as range though, think of it as a 0-200 yard gun, NOT a 300 yard gun. If you think that you will be shooting alot in the 300 yard range, go with a centerfire (.223, .22/250, .220, .204 etc...)
CZ's are nice guns out of the box... Savages are nice guns too, but we tweak them a bit.
As far as your crappy stock... I have a brand new Boyd's cinnamon laminate Rimfire Target stock you can have cheap... that will make a considerable difference in your gun's asthetics and possibly performance. PM me if you are interested.
:)
 
PM Sent on the stock!!

Small game as in everything i can't reach with my 22lr.

I've only previously tried coyote hunting with my old Sako .270 Winchester deer gun. Not really allot of experience.

Hard to decide.....just love guns.


First of all, how do you define "small game"??? Rabbits, hares, coons, foxes, coyotes???
Buy an HMR... you will love it. As far as range though, think of it as a 0-200 yard gun, NOT a 300 yard gun. If you think that you will be shooting alot in the 300 yard range, go with a centerfire (.223, .22/250, .220, .204 etc...)
CZ's are nice guns out of the box... Savages are nice guns too, but we tweak them a bit.
As far as your crappy stock... I have a brand new Boyd's cinnamon laminate Rimfire Target stock you can have cheap... that will make a considerable difference in your gun's asthetics and possibly performance. PM me if you are interested.
:)
 
I ordered a yodave kit for my new CZ452.
The trigger right out of the box is good on this one.
And I am a fussy booger when it comes to triggers.
No creep and a nice pull.
I put the second lightest spring in the trigger to lighten it up a bit.
Didn't need to put in the forward trigger pin spacer as the creep wasn't there.
Pm me if you want a great tip on this.
Just not my intention to pizz anyone off at this time.
Looky.
 
I lived this decision-making process over the last couple of years, including buying a 452 Varmint in HMR. First-off, CZs are gorgeous...17HMR is a wicked-cool rimfire round. Period. I want another HMR one day, and hope it IS another 452 Varmint. However, for me, the bench mark for small game hunting (for my needs) is, and was, groundhogs. Varmints, nothing I had plans on eating. I zapped groundhogs all summer using the HMR and was less than impressed with it's effect on these big rodents. Yes, it put most of them down cleanly, but not all of them...and very few hit in the boiler when I tried to achieve this mystical 150+ yard shots on them. Hunting hilly ground, you're not always offered broad-side shots, sometimes your only angle is top of the back, etc. HMR was just not that consistent a performer...in spite of how much I wanted it to be, and how much I loved the rifle.

So, as I think someone else had said..."define small game". Having seen what HMR won't do on groundhogs, there isn't a chance I'd ever try to pop a coyote with one...though I doubt they're as tough as some of the groundhogs I've shot. :) The only Ontario hunters I've ever talked to who love think they've found the perfect rifle are rabbit hunters who like the challenge of longer-range, head-shots. Maybe a crow here and there.

Not willing to give-up on rimfires, I played around with a .22WMR (much better on groundhogs) but then quickly moved to a .223 and it's been awesome. .204 was a temptation, but .223 ammo is just more commonly available, and there are some deals out there that rival HMR cost.

HMR really is a niche caliber in my way of thinking~barely enough for groundhogs, too powerful for rabbit or squirrel body shots, etc. Remember, I still said I want one, and plan on getting another...but the reason one currently doesn't sit in the collection is the lack of usefulness, not the ammo cost.
 
However, for me, the bench mark for small game hunting (for my needs) is, and was, groundhogs. Varmints, nothing I had plans on eating. I zapped groundhogs all summer using the HMR and was less than impressed with it's effect on these big rodents. Yes, it put most of them down cleanly, but not all of them...and very few hit in the boiler when I tried to achieve this mystical 150+ yard shots on them. Hunting hilly ground, you're not always offered broad-side shots, sometimes your only angle is top of the back, etc. HMR was just not that consistent a performer...in spite of how much I wanted it to be, and how much I loved the rifle.

I am curious about your ammo??? I had similar results with all brands of 17 grain V-Max bullets... but in our experience the 20 grain XTP's (Gamepoints) are another beast altogether and do a great job on jacks, coons, ghogs and fox out to 200 yards (but mostly, well inside of 150 yards).
 
Mostly 17gr. Hornady V-Max, but some 20gr. JHPs. I guess it's a matter of perspective too. My hunting buddy always carried his .223 beside me while hunting them, we'd either take turns on groundhogs...or if they were 150 yards+ out there, he'd get the shot. Once you hit the same farms a 1/2 dozen times...you can't get within 150+ yards of them, so I ended-up at a disadvantage.

And that's not even discussing the impact difference...holy cow.

Anyhow, shooting/hunting is like so many things...you can either do the most with the least, or have power to spare, it's a matter of preference. I'd never suggest you can't hunt groundhogs with an HMR, but rather, simply say what my experience has been. Namely, that (again, my opinion) a .22WMR does a better job on them, and neither can hold a candle to .223. Most groundhogs I've shot with a .223 either get pinned where they stood, or there are acrobatics involved.

As a CZ endorsement (feeling a little nostalgic today) I figured I'll throw a CZ/groundhog photo up from a while back. Probably the prettiest rifle I've ever owned. One day I'll have another.

July16GHOG1-1.jpg
 
Mostly 17gr. Hornady V-Max, but some 20gr. JHPs. I guess it's a matter of perspective too. My hunting buddy always carried his .223 beside me while hunting them, we'd either take turns on groundhogs...or if they were 150 yards+ out there, he'd get the shot. Once you hit the same farms a 1/2 dozen times...you can't get within 150+ yards of them, so I ended-up at a disadvantage.

And that's not even discussing the impact difference...holy cow.

I'd never suggest you can't hunt groundhogs with an HMR, but rather, simply say what my experience has been. Namely, that (again, my opinion) a .22WMR does a better job on them, and neither can hold a candle to .223. Most groundhogs I've shot with a .223 either get pinned where they stood, or there are acrobatics involved.

I suspected you might be doing most of your shooting with 17 grain V-Max rounds... we have had similar results from them... but in our experience the 20 grain XTP (Gamepoint) loads are an entirely different story. We have had alot of success anchoring jacks, coons and fox with them... also used them for shorter range coyotes... but generally we target coyotes with our .243's with 58 grain V-Max Moly's.

You seem to have been influenced by the proximity of your buddy and his .223... but it is really not fair to compare rimfire terminal ballistics with centerfire ballistics... the HMR 20 grain loads have 140 ft/lb at 100 yards and .223 55 grain loads have in the neighborhood of 1000 ft/lb at the same range, or roughly EIGHT TIMES the energy... a fairer comparison would be HMR and WMR... HMR fairs well in the accuracy department and with the 20 grain loads compares well in the terminal damage arena aswell. I know that you probably know all this... but it can be discouraging being out classed on a side by side shoot. If you stay within the capabilities of HMR and accept the limitations, then it is a very fun and effective round... for us it is the best fox gun ever created... where are shots are under 125 yards and the 20 grain loads expand and anchor them very quickly, but without the explosive damage of centerfire. :)
 
Yes I know all of that, but believe me...I wanted to like the HMR more. Considering the ever-increasing cost of HMR, it's yet another strike against it when trying to justify buying another. I will add, that in no way was I comparing the two as though they're in the same arena...they're not. More that I've seen the two shooting at the same size of target so many times that it becomes harder to be enchanted with HMR when the effective distance, and huge difference in punch is so apparent.

In all honesty, I may not have given the 20gr. ammo it's fair amount of time in the field, so perhaps I'll correct that one day..we'll see. "anchor" is a great term too...very accurate way to describe the sort of effect I know a .223 has on a groundhog.

Anyhow, great discussion. I'm a real rimfire fan through and through. It's nice on this side of the fence though. :)
 
I had a CZ 453 in HMR and liked it a lot, but I just couldn't justify the price for the ammo, since there is no chance for eventual cost recovery through saving brass. In the end I sold it and went with a varmint .204 rifle just for something different, but if I had to make a choice between the two calibers listed, the .223 would have been it. As good as the HMR is, it just can't compete with the .223 (or any other small bore centerfire round) in a direct performance comparison.
 
I have a 17HMR, but I prefer the 17mach2 for out to 125 yards on ground squirrels, and the 22Hornet beyond 150 yards, of if any wind is present. I much prefer the 22hornet for use on larger game like coyotes.
 
I have a 17HMR, but I prefer the 17mach2 for out to 125 yards on ground squirrels, and the 22Hornet beyond 150 yards, of if any wind is present. I much prefer the 22hornet for use on larger game like coyotes.

Hey Partner! Sounds like your Hummer would be perfect for you from 125-150 yards. :D
 
I purchased it pretty much out of curiosity, I couldn't even convince myself that I had a good use for it.:D

I know what you mean... HMR SUCKS! It must be a real irritant in your safe... you did me a good turn in the past, so I would like to help you out now... I'll send you a shipping label and you can send that "hunk of junk" to me and I'll put it out of its misery! PM your address. ;)
 
Get a CZ in 452 or 453 , you can't go wrong with quality. We have gophers out here and the 17 HMR is just excellent. Best shot to date 269 yards. It would be to small for anything over rabbit size though. My CZ 527 in .204 is just getting tuned in. I am hoping for a 500 yard kill with it (on a gopher)
 
I know what you mean... HMR SUCKS! It must be a real irritant in your safe... you did me a good turn in the past, so I would like to help you out now... I'll send you a shipping label and you can send that "hunk of junk" to me and I'll put it out of its misery! PM your address.

My Cooper in 17HMR is a very accurate rifle that I do enjoy shooting, but I don't shoot it nearly as often as my 17mach2. It just doesn't offer enough to justify twice the price for ammunition over a 17mach2, and my Anschutz in 22Hornet slaughters it at longer distances. I end up shooting the 17HMR just because.:D
 
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